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Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by danharaj on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @02:01PM (#16485687)
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by wpasc on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @02:44PM (#16486103)
>my own prediction is that future historians, if they haven't all been replaced by cognitive psychologists, will regard misplaced faith in data, metrics and statistical analysis as the curse of the twenty-first century

I think that line ruined the review for me, that whole paragraph just chastises the notion of evidence

Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by merpnderp on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @03:00PM (#16486243)
In a world of rewarded p-hacking, unrepeatable cancer research, of wild contentions being pulled from the loosest of correlations, you think faith in these things isn't a problem?

Keep in mind faith has a specific meaning as a belief in something you yourself can't prove. IE, you aren't repeating these experiments, thus you take it on faith they are correct - a critique of science originally put forth by Richard Feynman the Nobel Prize winning physicist.

Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by foldr on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @02:47PM (#16486124)
No, it chastises misplaced faith in it.
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by Stefan-H on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @02:54PM (#16486196)
Can one have a misplaced faith in evidence? Once there is evidence for something, it is not merely faith - faith is conviction without evidence. The whole point of the scientific process is to re-evaluate conclusions when new evidence is presented. I suppose historians may look back and find that some of our scientific beliefs were held in spite of evidence to the contrary, or that evidence was not sought out to disprove those beliefs, but I do not see how a full discrediting of data and statistics would one day happen.
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by foldr on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @02:58PM (#16486224)
>Can one have a misplaced faith in evidence?

That's a semantic quibble which isn't really relevant to the point that Harrison is making in the rest of the quoted paragraph.

But yes, you can have misplaced faith in e.g. null hypothesis significance testing and other methods of data collection and analysis common in some of the social sciences.

Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by Stefan-H on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @03:09PM (#16486329)
My point was not that you can't have misplaced faith. But rather can you have misplaced faith in the notion of evidenced based conclusions. If your conclusions are based on evidence, then it isn't faith. It may still be wrong, but it isn't faith.
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by foldr on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @03:26PM (#16486488)
Oh, that's just a pun on 'faith'. The 'faith' in 'misplaced faith' isn't religious faith.
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by Stefan-H on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @03:37PM (#16486622)
Can you elaborate on what you mean? What definition of "faith" do you think is meant here?
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by foldr on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @03:50PM (#16486770)
The ordinary meaning of the word 'faith', as in e.g. 'John has a misplaced faith in his own abilities'.
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by Stefan-H on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @04:01PM (#16486863)
So belief without evidence. Do you see how it is non-sensical to then say "misplaced faith in evidence"?
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by bobthechef on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @04:36PM (#16487243)
That's not the definition of faith, really. Faith can mean belief and it can mean trust (often the former is an expression of the latter). What you mean is blind faith, which is pejorative. When it comes to religion (Chistianity specifically), the recorded accounts of Jesus' miracles and his resurrection function as historical evidence of his divinity.

What you describe is more like fideism.

Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by foldr on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @04:15PM (#16487018)
Faith doesn't mean 'belief without evidence'. That's a Richard Dawkins talking point, not anything you'll find in a dictionary. John could have excellent evidence for his own abilities, and yet his faith in those abilities could turn out to be misplaced.
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by Stefan-H on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @04:57PM (#16487471)
"Not anything you will find in a dictionary" is a terrible bar to base something off of: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith Definition 2b. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/faith definition 2.

Using faith and belief interchangeably seems disingenuous and ignores the religious context that is part of faith. Faith implies a lack of compromise, a concreteness, and unwillingness to change. Using that term to describe evidence based science, and the belief that evidence ought to be presented before a belief is held is an attempt to reduce science to dogma.

Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by Noos on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @04:09PM (#16486954)
I don't know if they mean evidence in a specific sense. I think they mean misplaced faith in data in a meta sense, giving it more power to affect decisions than it should. The idea that everything can be solved by commissioning a study, acquiring data, and analyzing it. Or that "the data" becomes an unquestioning authority that you invoke.

edit: the word "Scientism" is probably closer to the meaning here; science and rationality as a belief system in itself, as opposed to tools that help us understand physical processes. Faith in these tools to supply meaning and create a better society, often to absurd levels.

Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by defgeneric on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @03:16PM (#16486395)
The argument isn't about facts. It's about the meaning of facts, and specifically their meaning for us.
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by jsky_goog on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @02:57PM (#16486217)
I think an example of "misplaced faith in evidence" would be along the lines of equating correlation with causation based on evidence.
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by Stefan-H on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @03:25PM (#16486482)
I disagree with that as an example of a "misplaced faith in evidence". That is coming to the wrong conclusion due to committing a false cause logical fallacy. Drawing the wrong conclusion should not be confused with a "misplaced faith in evidence". It seems that the religious really want to use the term faith in regards to science so as to imply that scientists "stoop to their level". That argument is seemingly often made that scientists have a blind faith in science. Certainly it happens that a scientist will hold onto beliefs against evidence, will doctor evidence to confirm their belief, and will cherry pick data to prove their belief that they hold despite evidence. But those are all actions that are antithetical to the scientific process. while and endemic to religion.
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by piracy1 on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @02:59PM (#16486232)
The article is under the 'religion' section so it seems reasonable that the author (A religious scholar) would have some issues with a worldview based on empirical and provable evidence.
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by dcre on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @03:20PM (#16486431)
Wow, really deep thinking here. What a great demonstration of the rationality you apparently worship.
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by mpweiher on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @02:50PM (#16486155)
Hmm...that's not a review of the book, it's a hit piece by someone with a personal axe to grind because of a previous article.

An example:

The ultimate import of his graphs is to demonstrate some kind of inexorable and progressive historical law (although he doesn't admit as much).

Where to begin with something as inane as this? The reviewer makes up a silly interpretation of what Pinker has provided, claims without any evidence that this is what Pinker really means, because he obviously knows better, and then faults Pinker for this silly interpretation. Hmm..

He goes on:

In Pinker's history, it seems as though there are no real contingencies - no prospect that the battle of Britain might had been lost, no prospect that the cold war might have turned into nuclear catastrophe, and for the future, no real sense of a potential calamity produced by climate change or a trigger-happy Kim Jong-Un (or his U.S. counterpart, for that matter). This is an almost providential view of history.

Again, the reviewer completely misses the point: we have always had potential calamities. But the real calamities have decreased dramatically, and life has improved so incredibly that it is not even funny. This really hit me when I was on a tour at the Neue Palais in Potsdam, a palace/guest house built by Frederick the Great to impress his neighbors. This palace has a bunch of apartments for royal guests. Even the poorest households in Western countries today live better. Much better.

We. Are. Living. Like. Kings.

No: better than kings of even a few centuries ago.

So yeah, Pinker is right.

Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by foldr on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @03:28PM (#16486510)
> But the real calamities have decreased dramatically, and life has improved so incredibly that it is not even funny

How is that not an almost providential view of history? I don't see how the charge is misplaced.

Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by mpweiher on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @03:38PM (#16486649)
> How is that not an almost providential view of history?

In about every conceivable way?

"Providential" means that there is some divine guidance or care, so it is (a) about the cause of what happened and (b) that this cause is somehow divine in nature.

Saying that "real calamities have decreased dramatically" is not saying anything about causes, it is simply making an empirical observation about the world. Which could certainly be wrong, but even then it is not saying anything about divine causes.

Of course, Pinker does say something about causes, but these are about as far away from "divine intervention or guidance" as possible. In fact, it is about as secular as you can get.

Of course, you may be of an opinion that such a "lucky streak" so to say is so highly improbable that it must be divine intervention, but that is purely you, because it isn't luck and it isn't divine intervention. The entire argument is that we have found something that works really well, empirically.

Unless of course you change the definition of "almost" to be "the exact opposite of".

Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by foldr on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @03:52PM (#16486783)
Yeah, I took that to be the import of the 'almost'. Harrison is noting the irony that Pinker is is much more of a panglossian than many people who actually do believe in divine providence.

"Though I am skittish about any notion of historical inevitability, cosmic forces or mystical arcs of justice, some kinds of social change really do seem to be carried along by an inexorable tectonic force."

Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by toasterlovin on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @03:44PM (#16486701)
Given how much easier it is to destroy things than to build them, that things have gotten so much better over such a long period of time would seem to indicate that there is some causal force at work and that it isn't merely a string of incredibly good luck.
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by foldr on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @03:51PM (#16486778)
Sure, maybe. I didn't say that an 'almost providential' view of history is necessarily wrong, just that Pinker does indeed seem to hold such a view.
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by toasterlovin on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @06:51PM (#16488399)
How could anybody digesting Pinker's message come to that conclusion? His whole message is that we got here primarily because we embraced reason and science and that we can get to an even better place as long as we continue to embrace reason and science.
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by foldr on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @07:00PM (#16488461)
Right, that is the view that is being labeled almost providential. There's a quote from the book that I posted in another comment that pretty clearly exemplifies the 'almost' providential nature of Pinker's view of history:

"Though I am skittish about any notion of historical inevitability, cosmic forces or mystical arcs of justice, some kinds of social change really do seem to be carried along by an inexorable tectonic force."

Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by toasterlovin on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @03:41PM (#16486669)
The problem with good news is that most people's political positions are built on a narrative that everything is terrible.
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by mpweiher on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @03:54PM (#16486808)
True. What's funny is that if you ask people how their individual circumstances are, they overwhelmingly answer "good and improving". But then you ask them about the state of the world and they answer "horrible and getting worse".

And of course politicians have also been at it for some time. See Adam Curtis's excellent The Power of Nightmares: The Rise of the Politics of Fear.

https://archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares-AdamCurtis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares

Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by crusso on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @02:29PM (#16485945)
I can only read so much snark before I give up and wonder at when the actual reasoned review of the book will begin.
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by bobthechef on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @04:37PM (#16487271)
It's called polemic. Just because something is polemical doesn't mean it is untrue or unsound. Tone does not discredit content.
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by crusso on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @07:17PM (#16488591)
Technically true, but I'm kind of sick of seeing it. The more time I spend online, the more nauseated I feel when I read people writing serious documents who can't even be civil.

If either of the criticism articles that I saw links to here were actually posted as comments on HN, dang would be asking them to reword their criticisms to be less hostile and aggressive.

Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by danharaj on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @02:36PM (#16486019)
Snark and reason can coexist, you know. What exactly did you find unreasoned in the review?
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by Karunamon on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @02:49PM (#16486148)
As can reason and sincerity. Humans, being humans rather than Vulcans or robots, should understand that excessive snark serves to distract from the point and draw attention to the author.
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by foldr on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @02:52PM (#16486173)
You only have to look at the outrageously arrogant title of Pinker's book to see that the reviewer is being pretty restrained.
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by Karunamon on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @02:55PM (#16486200)
"Enlightenment Now" is an arrogant title? It sounds remarkably generic to me.

Anyways, that cuts both ways. If I believed that the book was going to be overwrought twaddle and then saw this review while deciding if it was worth my time, I'd be just as likely to dismiss them both as haughty wankers not worth listening to.

Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by foldr on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @03:01PM (#16486249)
The subtitle is "the case for reason, science, humanism and progress".

>If I believed that the book was going to be overwrought twaddle and then saw this review while deciding if it was worth my time, I'd be just as likely to dismiss them both as haughty wankers not worth listening to.

I guess you're not as big a fan of reason as Pinker is, then. It's the content of the review you need to look at if you want to figure out whether the book's any good or not.

In any case, the style of the review is pretty much par for the course in academia. You can easily find similarly snarky articles by Pinker himself.

Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by Karunamon on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @05:26PM (#16487731)
>In any case, the style of the review is pretty much par for the course in academia.

A bit off topic, but that's terribly damning of academia! It's not often you get a concrete example of the "educated elite talking down to the proles" stereotype, but that review is it, in the flesh.

It's off-putting. Viscerally so. I've read bad restaurant reviews by professional critics that are less venomous.

Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by foldr on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @05:35PM (#16487825)
That's weird. I don't get that impression from the review at all. Pinker is a Harvard Professor, and hardly a prole from anyone's point of view. You have to bear in mind that Pinker has put out a series of publications in the past 5-10 years that are extremely patronizing to scholars in the humanities. If you're going to tell entire disciplines that they're doing it all wrong, and that you know how to do it right, then you can't really expect a friendly response. One can imagine the reaction if, for example, historians wrote articles telling physicists how to conduct their research.
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by Karunamon on Thursday March 01, 2018 @12:39PM (#16494197)
So is the review directed at the author, or the potential reader?
Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by euyyn on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @03:44PM (#16486696)
> It's the content of the review you need to look at if you want to figure out whether the book's any good or not.

True. Doesn't mean it's worth his time to read if the style is distracting. He's just hoping to find a better-written review.

Re:Steven Pinker makes case for human progress in ‘Enlighten... by bobthechef on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @04:39PM (#16487285)
Perhaps generic for the kinds of books Oprah endorses, but given the reviewer's demonstration of Pinker's ignorance, is a laughably pretentious title.