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Re:The Impact of Zoning on Housing Affordability (2002) by Gibbon1 on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @09:28PM (#16480192)
If you care about the rest of the country you should ask why the fire hose of investment money is directed at SF and New York and not elsewhere. Instead of asking what's wrong with San Francisco. Why not ask what's wrong with the rest of the US?

Sure I can name a bunch of reasons why little housing is built in California, we can start with the Libertarian wet dream that is Prop 13. Prop 13 does two things, removes any incentive for muni's to approve new housing. And starves the government of funding to pay for public goods like schools and mass transit. The zoning restrictions Libertarians bitch about are partly the direct result of that.

Okay fine. But then still the question is, even if we admit California has issues, why is it that corporations which are totally free to locate elsewhere aren't doing so? You would think with a large cost differential corporations would move. Why not?

Because neoliberal conservative dominated governments in the rest of the US means that VC's, engineers, and mangers don't want to live in those places at all. So they and their companies are paying a large premium not to.

No workers don't want to work in 'right to work state' They don't want to send their kids to schools that teach creationism and abstinence only sex education. They don't want to live in communities with bad family planning.

Re:The Impact of Zoning on Housing Affordability (2002) by gnarcoregrizz on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:21PM (#16480433)
I don't think prop 13 is a libertarian wet dream. It was simply a short sighted tax revolt. The only reason I'm hesitant to put the libertarian label on it is because it uses policy to pick winners and losers. If it were to decrease taxes proportionally or remove them, then sure, I'd call it libertarian. I agree it's complete shit though. It creates all sorts of broken incentives
Re:The Impact of Zoning on Housing Affordability (2002) by souprock on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:14PM (#16480404)
Lots of people like being in a right-to-work state. It means not having to pay a private tax to a corrupt union that mostly serves to create dumb rules that cause problems. If you are a decent worker, you don't appreciate rules that make companies lay off the newer workers first, preventing the lazy ones from being eliminated. Hardly anybody likes having to bring in an electrician just to plug in a power strip. The idea that I can't move a large box or a desk (due to being hired for some other role) is absurd.

The states you speak of are the ones most friendly to home schooling. You can teach evolution and anti-abstinence all you want. FYI though, there are creationist engineers. I've met many.

I'm not sure what you mean by "bad" family planning. I don't see why you should care what other people do. Maybe I am "bad" for having 11 kids, but I won't force you to have that many.

Right across the hall from me is an engineer who left SF. He uses his AR-15 at home in his yard. (might go over badly in SF, you think?) He keeps goats and lots of chickens. Clearly, he does in fact "want to live in those places" instead of in SF where he grew up.

Re:The Impact of Zoning on Housing Affordability (2002) by manfredo on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @09:51PM (#16480292)
I don't really follow what message you're trying to convey, but it sounds a lot like that you're starting the problem is with the demand for real estate in Silicon Valley, not the supply.

This isn't the case. Silicon Valley, Seattle, etc. are just on the leading edge of a larger tend towards greater urbanization. It's a pattern that's also happening in Austin, Portland, and more cities just to less extreme degrees. The simple fact is that in a developed country dense population centers are more efficient - both economically and environmentally.

Re:The Impact of Zoning on Housing Affordability (2002) by secstate on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:12PM (#16480399)
I'd be careful with "simple facts." Rarely do they turn out to be simple. Show me the evidence that dense urban areas are economically AND environmentally more efficient. The environment part seems especially suspect.

To a large degree we're still living in the shadow of the industrial revolution, when workers flocked to cities for work. As a telecommuter, my quality of life is a thousand fold higher than my co-workers in the D.C. or Dallas metro areas where it seems many people find themselves alone in a sea of humans and chronically maligning poorly planned mass transit.

Re:The Impact of Zoning on Housing Affordability (2002) by manfredo on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:24PM (#16480448)
The economic efficiency is demonstrated by the greater job growth in urban areas. I'll easily find stats on this when I get off mobile. And this is the first time I've heard someone claim that sprawl and dispersed populations are environmentally better than urban areas. Not only do dispersed populations need greater land development, they need significantly more energy used in transportation to deliver the same quality of life. I saw a stat that compared the per capita carbon footprint of wealthy countries and it was essentially inversely proportional to levels of urbanization. And like the economy one, sit tight for an hour or do for me to get home and share this data.

Sources for greater economic growth in urban areas:

https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/rural-economy-population/emp...

Countries by CO2 emissions per-capita: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...

Countries by urbanization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_by_country

And that's not even getting into things like the amount of land that gets developed for low density homes and services, roads, water reservoirs, electric lines, etc.

Wealthy rural countries (USA, Australia, Russia), produce more carbon than dense wealthy countries. Granted, I wouldn't be surprised if carbon emissions and environmental impact of the average city resident was higher than the average rural resident - but that's largely a result of the fact that rural residents are generally less wealthy. This is definitely true on a global scale (the countries with the lowest carbon footprints are poor, rural ones), and I wouldn't be surprised if it were true on a nation wide scale. I didn't explicitly state it in in the first post, but I did clarify in the second that this was for the same standard of living.

On a side note, an interesting thing to look into is how Singapore manages to provide so much services with such a small budget - 14.2% of GDP per capita as opposed to 26% in the US. A huge part of this is because it's so much more efficient to provide services when you're dealing with population concentrated in such a small area. Imagine how much more money (and energy) it takes to deliver electricity, running water, sewage, emergency services, education, etc. to households in Oregon where 4 million people are distributed across 98,466 square miles as opposed to concentrating them all in 278 square miles. Even if things like land and labor cost more, so much overhead and operational costs are saved by not having to service such a massive area.

Re:The Impact of Zoning on Housing Affordability (2002) by secstate on Friday March 02, 2018 @11:39AM (#16503044)
Thanks for the data! Is it unreasonable to think that as energy efficiency of things (cars, heating systems, airplanes) improve and we move towards renewable energy that the inefficiency of rural life could become offsetting and the value of nature on the human psyche is allowed to return to our culture?

I realize that's more of a value judgement and not objective. But there are definitely costs associated with living in dense urban places. Regardless of efficiencies we are definitely still living in a post-industrial-revolution world, and people did not voluntarily cram themselves into giant cities then, so some sort of reversion when it's possible makes sense. Vast populations of urban people in China would rather not have to move into the city.

Re:The Impact of Zoning on Housing Affordability (2002) by mertd on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:04PM (#16480354)
SV is not urban. It is sub-urban and that's the problem.
Re:The Impact of Zoning on Housing Affordability (2002) by closeparen on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:30PM (#16480475)
Why do cities exist at all? There are immense economic benefits to being in close proximity to many potential employees and partners. There are reasons we live in clusters and not spaced out in equidistant family farms. Lack of space isn't one of them.
Re:The Impact of Zoning on Housing Affordability (2002) by brownbat on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:19PM (#16480430)
It seems like we should see a bunch of people "voting with their feet." Trouble is that on net people are mostly moving out of California and New York and into places like South Carolina, Idaho, and Tennessee.

http://www.businessinsider.com/state-domestic-migration-map-...

OTOH they are also moving out of Wyoming and Kansas and into Colorado and Oregon.

What to make of this?

Maybe... people mostly go where jobs and cost of living and social connections line up, politics either direction just isn't a great predictor?

Re:The Impact of Zoning on Housing Affordability (2002) by yostrovs on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:00PM (#16480336)
I know that for myself and many others I know, it is California's weather, nature, and ocean that drew us there. Nowhere else in the continental US can you have great year round weather.
Re:The Impact of Zoning on Housing Affordability (2002) by secstate on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:08PM (#16480383)
Oh wow. Personal preference is thick in that last statement there. I can't stand places with wet and dry seasons. I can't imagine wanting to live somewhere without snow in the winter. "Great year round weather" is a value judgement.
Re:The Impact of Zoning on Housing Affordability (2002) by yostrovs on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @07:56AM (#16482651)
To soothe your feelings, I now live in the northern Midwest where we have real winter. And since it is indeed a value judgement, I still hold to the fact that Califonia has great weather. I like warmth, sun, reasonable levels of humidity. I think the majority of people are with me on this one.
Re:The Impact of Zoning on Housing Affordability (2002) by secstate on Friday March 02, 2018 @11:32AM (#16502951)
Not sure my feelings were hurt. I was just pointing out a value judgement when I saw it.
Re:The Impact of Zoning on Housing Affordability (2002) by krausejj on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @10:02AM (#16483394)
In my case, nothing is wrong with the rest of the US, but I happen to have created a life here in California. My friends and job are here. Sure, the sunshine is nice, but that's not the thing keeping me here. And the tax rate in Reno policy in very appealing (and they have mountains! near Tahoe!), but am I going to abandon my community for those reasons alone? Nope.
Re:The Impact of Zoning on Housing Affordability (2002) by seanp2k2 on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @09:49PM (#16480280)
The vast majority of the US (by landmass) sucks to actually live in, and the economies of those areas are also awful. This is why many who can move to the coast do. Even within “the coasts”, outside of NYC, the east coast doesn’t have a comparable economic area to the Bay Area + LA + Seattle + Portland.
Re:The Impact of Zoning on Housing Affordability (2002) by wbl on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:42PM (#16480526)
New Hampshire, libertarian paradise, has none of those things. And no income tax and low sales tax.