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Re:Connecticut Hunting Down Online Shoppers Who Didn't Pay S... by neverminder on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @09:59AM (#16473836)
Maybe this sounds naive, but as a European I'll never understand this, why doesn't US just implement country wide VAT?
Re:Connecticut Hunting Down Online Shoppers Who Didn't Pay S... by sct202 on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:08AM (#16473933)
It gets even more complicated here. We have local sales taxes that can apply to a specific neighborhoods within a city.
Re:Connecticut Hunting Down Online Shoppers Who Didn't Pay S... by gph on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:02AM (#16473868)
This is about state-level tax revenue, not federal-level. Plenty of states don't have a sales tax.
Re:Connecticut Hunting Down Online Shoppers Who Didn't Pay S... by neverminder on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:06AM (#16473914)
I guess what I was trying to say why don't they just scrap all state sales tax in favor of one country wide tax like VAT.
Re:Connecticut Hunting Down Online Shoppers Who Didn't Pay S... by abfan1127 on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:09AM (#16473953)
because we are a federation of states, with whats supposed to be a thin layer of federal government intended to only make sure the states play nicely with eachother, provide a post office, and a national defense. Clearly, we've gotten away from these basic services.
Re:Connecticut Hunting Down Online Shoppers Who Didn't Pay S... by gph on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:15AM (#16474023)
Why doesn't the EU scrap all state level VAT for an EU wide VAT?
Re:Connecticut Hunting Down Online Shoppers Who Didn't Pay S... by ergothus on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:42AM (#16474324)
US attitudes and logic about taxes are quite different, particularly in the last 30 years. In my mind, the main difference is the attitude about the role and benefits of govt - see the "you didn't build that" debate, that I believe would viewed as obvious in most European countries and yet was used as fodder for political attacks in the US. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_didn%27t_build_that
Re:Connecticut Hunting Down Online Shoppers Who Didn't Pay S... by nybble41 on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @03:16PM (#16477418)
The "you didn't build that" debate is an excellent example of why the role of so-called "public goods" should be minimized at all costs. Normally, when someone else has a good or service you'd like to use, you negotiate a price and—assuming you reach a mutually agreeable accommodation—pay them for the privilege at the time of use. That's the end of it; the books remain balanced. Contrast this with the "you didn't build that" argument, which amounts to "we think you once may have benefitted from something we did without consulting you, so you owe us a share of your profits from now until the end of time". As a moral argument (i.e. saying that an individual should contribute back voluntarily) this claim is tenuous at best; as a justification for simply taking a share of the profits (i.e. taxation) it falls completely flat.
Re:Connecticut Hunting Down Online Shoppers Who Didn't Pay S... by ergothus on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @03:50PM (#16486764)
Interesting. I see it as a bit orthogonal: Even if you negotiate with private parties, you are still dependent upon the system and should support the system. In many cases this is public goods, but any system (free market, a positive anarchy, socialism) has actions you can take to support or oppose (make harder) the system.

In essence: Unless you're in the woods fashioning your own clothes, tools, shelter, education, communication, transportation, health care, using only natural resources that fully replenish, you're dependent on some system. The level of dependency varies, and the nature and level of support varies, but it is present.

> which amounts to "we think you once may have benefitted from something we did without consulting you, so you owe us a share of your profits from now until the end of time".

A fairly biased-sounding interpretation, particularly the "once may have benefitted". The whole point of the argument is that there are so many assets that are not of your making: Educated workers. Healthy workers. Means of transportation. Educated customers. Healthy customers. Ways to communicate. I can see arguing if these are more/less efficient or reliable via free market vs another system, but to say "once may have benefitted" is pretty disingenuous. Heck, living to be old enough to MAKE the clever decisions, being educated enough at that time (oh, you were home schooled? How did your instructor learn what they learned?) and healthy enough (how do we know what IS healthy? One need only look at certain remedies that are still passed around today to see we can't just count on our own opinions on cause/effect) and had customers likewise, and a common currency, not to mention not having someone with enough friends and weapons take everything away from you - these didn't manifest because someone is just that awesome, they are the result of a system.

Re: Taxation, here's a libertarian-friendly argument: Let's imagine a group of people get together and agree to a set of rules. They agree on consequences for breaking those rules. Now you have a govt and taxation. "But _I_ didn't choose these!" you declare. True. I support that people should be able to revoke their citizenship and leave. "But it's not fair to have these rules forced upon me! I should be able to stay, or..." It totally isn't "fair". Or is it? How do you define "fair"? Regardless, there are number of ways to set your own rules that have been proven to work: negotiate a price in a mutually agreeable accommodation with enough people to enforce the rules you want. We call this government, and one of the rules is taxation. Most agreed-upon sets of rules define additional ways to change the rules, but with or without those changes, all governments are such systems.

I truly do support the idea that people should be able to revoke their citizenship, because being born and early childhood are a place where you have no choices - but you don't get to keep "your" land and "your" property when they ARE the result of the system you are rejecting. An investment manager doesn't get to keep all the profit they generate because THEY increased the value - a 200% return is still 0 if you start with 0. But yeah, if anyone wants to leave that isn't a criminal, I think the system should support it. They are welcome to find some place to live that isn't already under the control of a group of free-thinkers that have leveraged their natural talents to be able to enforce their rules. Good luck to them.

Outside of that, I don't understand the argument that governments are somehow inherently evil when they are the direct result of the very principles that argument is arguing in favor of.

Re:Connecticut Hunting Down Online Shoppers Who Didn't Pay S... by nybble41 on Wednesday February 28, 2018 @07:11PM (#16488541)
Even if you negotiate with private parties, you are still dependent upon the system and should support the system.

What "system"? You don't need any "system" to negotiate with another private party for mutual benefit. I have something you want, you have something I want, we agree to trade—done. No one else can take any credit for that.

A fairly biased-sounding interpretation, particularly the "once may have benefitted".

I disagree, but it works just as well if you drop the "once may have" part and abbreviate it to "we think you benefitted from something we did without consulting you". Doing something which you think benefits someone else does not entitle you to compensation. Compensation must be negotiated and mutually agreed to in advance. If you don't have an agreement like that in place then you have effectively chosen to grant the other party a gift. You may argue that they should reciprocate (though they can reasonably disagree—what you see as beneficial to them may appear otherwise from their point of view) but you are not entitled to compensation for your unilateral action.

Let's imagine a group of people get together and agree to a set of rules. They agree on consequences for breaking those rules. Now you have a govt and taxation.

No, what you have at this point is a voluntary club with membership dues. You don't have government and taxation until you start enforcing those rules on people who never agreed to them. At that point your club turns into a criminal organization, similar to the Mafia. When your criminal organization grows a PR branch and starts claiming that it's criminal actions are "legitimate" and "for the public good", then you have become a government (but that doesn't mean you're no longer a criminal organization).

"But _I_ didn't choose these!" you declare. True. I support that people should be able to revoke their citizenship and leave.

Why should they leave? They have every right to stay. That citizenship was forced on you without your consent. You never agreed to give anything up as a condition of rejecting it.

you don't get to keep "your" land and "your" property when they ARE the result of the system you are rejecting

Your property rights are your by natural law, created by the mixing of labor and unowned land and subsequently transferred between private individuals by mutual consent, and not the result of any "system". No government has any right to take them away.

I don't understand the argument that governments are somehow inherently evil when they are the direct result of the very principles that argument is arguing in favor of.

Clearly you have no idea what principles those are, or you wouldn't have made that mistake. The one thing all governments have in common is that they employ force against people who never agreed to those rules and did not first use force against them. That is diametrically opposed to the principles that argument is in favor of—in particular the Non-Aggression Principle.

Re:Connecticut Hunting Down Online Shoppers Who Didn't Pay S... by ceejayoz on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:10AM (#16473961)
"New" Federal taxes in the US - even if they make sense and just replace a different one - are basically a non-starter in the current political climate.
Re:Connecticut Hunting Down Online Shoppers Who Didn't Pay S... by derekp7 on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:05AM (#16473895)
Do you have an EU-wide VAT, or is it a separate calculation for each country?
Re:Connecticut Hunting Down Online Shoppers Who Didn't Pay S... by neverminder on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:08AM (#16473936)
As far as I know all European countries have VAT, just different percentage the most common being 20%.
Re:Connecticut Hunting Down Online Shoppers Who Didn't Pay S... by netsharc on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:21AM (#16474084)
And I believe you're right. And the EU is a "single market", which means someone residing in Germany can buy things in France and don't have to worry about paying import tax (1). Switzerland is famously not part of the EU, so there are limits and taxes (import tax plus VAT of where you are importing the good) when goods cross the Swiss border.

(1) Skimming Wikipedia suggests otherwise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_value_added_tax

Re:Connecticut Hunting Down Online Shoppers Who Didn't Pay S... by drb91 on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:11AM (#16473975)
There is an incredibly powerful lobby working against any meaningful tax return—namely, Intuit and that CPA lobby.

Edit: ack! I meant reform, not return!