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Re:Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules by CalRobert on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @08:50AM (#16473291)
For what it's worth, I'm trying to find a place that is free of cars because, well, they ruin life if you enjoy walking and cycling.

So far, places that come to mind are central Ghent and Rothenburg ob der Tauber (sadly the latter allows cars but they're still very few in number). If I were there I would expect to work remote, or start my own gig. I'd shop locally.

There are very few places in the world where you can live near other people and escape automobiles, and I suspect there are at least a few other people like myself.

Re:Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules by agmcleod on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @08:53AM (#16473313)
In many cases I see cycling ruin life if you enjoy driving or walking ;). I do find places that i've seen be bike friendly in Europe do a much better job at this. But cyclists in Toronto can be pretty awful. Likewise can pedestrians and cars. Whichever way I travel, the other two are annoying me or causing me grief somehow.
Re:Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules by CalRobert on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @09:04AM (#16473389)
Some people are inconsiderate :-( . Some of those people ride bikes. I've been annoyed at bicyclists while walking along holding my helmet just after docking my Dublinbike, even.

But a jerk walking is virtually certainly not going to kill me (or my kid). A jerk cycling almost certainly won't either. But a jerk driving quite possibly will - after all, where I come from there's a 9/11 on the roads every month due to drivers, and the dead are disproportionately people walking or cycling.

Of course, 100 years ago the streets were for walking (or horses, bikes, early autos, whathaveyou) and it was quite a feat that auto makers convinced people that only folks inside cars deserved to use 90% of it (all of it, in much of the US), and that it was perfectly normal to leave people walking clinging on to a shred of space at the edge.

Re:Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules by Noos on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @01:53PM (#16476617)
Actually a jerk walking may kill you and your kid...its called "mugging" which can happen when you walk places, and which really can't happen easily if you are in a car. And there are many areas in an average city where it's completely unsafe to walk in.

And keep in mind, it's a lot more dangerous for a woman to walk alone than the average HN poster, especially if they need to do so at night.

Re:Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules by dragonwriter on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @02:01PM (#16476689)
> Actually a jerk walking may kill you and your kid...its called "mugging" which can happen when you walk places, and which really can't happen easily if you are in a car.

“Mugging” can't happen in a car only in the sense that when it happens to people in a car, it is called “carjacking” instead of “mugging”.

Re:Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules by Noos on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @02:08PM (#16476769)
It's a lot harder to carjack someone than to mug, to be honest. Colleges in particular tend to be pretty serious about the risks of danger of being accosted,to the point of littering the campus with callboxes and maintaining a security staff. My point though is that it's not always a one to one comparison; walking has unique dangers to it.
Re:Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules by CalRobert on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @04:32PM (#16478140)
That's a question of intent, and in my mind a different matter. I meant jerk as in inconsiderate, not murderous.
Re:Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules by tarmstrong on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @09:08AM (#16473427)
When you say cyclists in Toronto can be awful, what do you mean? Are they mean to you, or do they not follow the rules of the road, or something else?

When I cycle I fear being killed by a motorist; when I drive I fear killing a cyclist. It's important to clarify whether cyclists are putting you in danger or if they are stressing you out. Both suck, but one sucks a lot more.

Re:Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules by agmcleod on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @03:18PM (#16477432)
Most of them are good. But i've seen many run red lights, go the wrong way on a one way street, i've been nearly hit by cyclists a few times. In terms of driving with cyclists, I think the main thing is lack of space more than actual actions. So an infrastructure problem. When driving what tends to give me pause is people acting out of place. So someone jay walking, or a cyclist cutting across lanes, as I then need to be more aware for people doing things incorrectly.

You are quite right in terms of where the danger lies though. It's on the driver more than any other to be the most careful with their actions.

Re:Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules by kaybe on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @04:08PM (#16477905)
The rules are not made for cyclists, and you can see that in their riding. When you expend your own power for every acceleration and have better vision & hearing, a red pedestrian light with nobody using it suddenly looks less absolute. A one-way street that can easily take 5 of you next to each other, and probably nobody even driving there, when the way around is 500m longer - the same.

You can see the same behaviour from car drivers when the rules don't make any sense (as for example in some upcoming countries).

Re:Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules by jacquesm on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @09:41AM (#16473666)
Cycling only really works when it is classed as a different kind of traffic from pedestrians and cars. If you lump the cyclists in with the pedestrians it will make the sidewalks dangerous and if you put them on the roads they get killed by drivers. Cycling needs separate infrastructure to be a real contender.
Re:Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules by tjansen on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @09:06AM (#16473406)
Don't really know Toronto, but bikes are pretty annoying for pedestrians here in Germany as well.
Re:Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules by agmcleod on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @03:23PM (#16477490)
Ah okay. I was mainly recalling what I saw in Amsterdam as well more recently in Vienna. I have been to germany, but my memory of cyclist life there is much more hazy :)
Re:Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules by akgerber on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @05:30PM (#16478640)
The big difference is that cyclists can, at worst, annoy drivers, but drivers regularly kill cyclists.
Re:Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules by jacquesm on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @09:39AM (#16473649)
There are still plenty of cars in Ghent, except for the very heart of the city. The circulation plan they implemented there works to some extent but it has actually made the situation in the outskirts of the city worse because people that do have to drive now drive longer distances to get to the same place.

There is still inner city parking too (the underground garages) so Ghent is not really free of cars yet.

If you want to live without cars the best place would be a nature reservation or silence zone, there are a few of those in Europe and the few houses that are there are priced quite high as a result but I think they would come closest to your vision.

Re:Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules by CalRobert on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:06AM (#16473907)
I was hoping to bear near people as well. I suppose it was a bit fanciful; I visited Ghent in spring and it was jaw-droppingly beautiful (flowers spilling over railings along a pretty river. The blue skies didn't hurt either). That would cost a bit, but from the looks of it not _too_ much all things considered. Some of the old walled cities are car-free enough that I'd let a six year old ride a bike in them, thus Rothenburg odt.

Alternately, a nature reservation shouldn't have residences in it, should it? When we get away from cities, towns, and villages, it becomes more feasible to just buy enough land to enjoy it without automobiles. A bit lonely though.

Re:Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules by jacquesm on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:24AM (#16474124)
> Alternately, a nature reservation shouldn't have residences in it, should it?

True, but the ones that have historically been there are usually grandfathered in when the area as a whole is declared a reservation. There will be strict limits on what you can do with such a place but that's a small price to pay.

There was one for sale here in NL, at least 2500 meters away from any trafficked road but - ironically - the people that live there have road access to their property making the whole thing much worse for the other users of that area such as me when I'm cycling there (the road is only about 2 meters wide).

I'd be very happy if you had bought it, that would save at least two vehicles that still use that road!

Re:Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules by CalRobert on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:47AM (#16474407)
:-( that's a shame. Can I ask how you found it? I've been researching this sort of thing casually and am not sure where to begin. I'm not aware of an EU-wide real estate search, aside from sites missing 95% of inventory like ee24.
Re:Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules by jacquesm on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @10:55AM (#16474511)
I found it on a bike trip. I've also lived in one of those places (Oudezijl, North-Eastern Groningen). The North-East of the country here is quite bike friendly and definitely as close to car free as it gets. Houses there are cheap because of the fear of earthquakes due to gas extraction, which means it is easy to buy in but very hard to sell.

One very good way to find such houses is to look at night time satellite images and to look for places with very little light. Any houses in those regions will be in very lightly trafficked areas.