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Re:Inside the OED: can the world’s biggest dictionary surviv... by thaumasiotes on Sunday February 25, 2018 @06:12PM (#16461774)
> I know many people will say that they can get a dictionary for free, why use the OED. The problem is that those who know better are not standing up to assert why it is superior, necessary, and incredibly valuable to the world.

There are a couple of problems with this.

First, the OED is primarily a work of historical scholarship. Anyone in the market for a dictionary so that they can look up the meanings of words would be better off getting something else, like Merriam-Webster or really anything. The OED is not a good choice for this purpose.

Second, a story: I spent a semester studying Chinese in a foreign student program at a Chinese school. Like everybody else, I used Pleco for my dictionary needs.

My friends in the class quickly noticed that I was getting much better dictionary value from my installation of Pleco than they were getting from theirs. When one of them asked how I was doing it, I responded "I bought for-pay dictionaries" and they immediately lost interest.

There was no need for me to assert that the dictionaries I was using were superior and valuable -- my friends had already come to that conclusion themselves by watching me. They just weren't willing to pay $20 for that additional value.

Re:Inside the OED: can the world’s biggest dictionary surviv... by dragonwriter on Sunday February 25, 2018 @10:29PM (#16462863)
> First, the OED is primarily a work of historical scholarship. Anyone in the market for a dictionary so that they can look up the meanings of words would be better off getting something else, like Merriam-Webster or really anything. The OED is not a good choice for this purpose

The OED is excellent for this purpose, due to its completeness, and other, even “unabridged” dictionaries fall far short of it in this use.

Of course, you have to a pretty particular needs in words to look up to be frequently hitting the space where the OED is needed for this.

Re:Inside the OED: can the world’s biggest dictionary surviv... by thaumasiotes on Monday February 26, 2018 @04:39PM (#16469212)
The OED may be excellent for this purpose in the same sense that a Juicero press was excellent for compressing a bag of vegetable mash, but, much like the Juicero press, that doesn't make it a good choice in the usual case.
Re:Inside the OED: can the world’s biggest dictionary surviv... by forapurpose on Monday February 26, 2018 @05:05PM (#16469405)
Perhaps what you mean is that you personally don't find it useful. Many, many people do.
Re:Inside the OED: can the world’s biggest dictionary surviv... by thaumasiotes on Monday February 26, 2018 @08:27PM (#16470449)
I personally find the OED just as useful as many of the people commenting here to defend it. I am interested in the content and it's something I would be happy to own and occasionally consult. (Though not to purchase.)

But unlike most everyone here, I'm acknowledging that the value I get from the OED is purely entertainment value, not utility.

I'll note also that it obviously cannot be true that "many, many people" find the OED useful, as the total number of people who access the OED more than a couple of times a year is less than "many, many".

Re:Inside the OED: can the world’s biggest dictionary surviv... by dragonwriter on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @01:18AM (#16471452)
> I'll note also that it obviously cannot be true that "many, many people" find the OED useful, as the total number of people who access the OED more than a couple of times a year is less than "many, many".

I don't access an optometrist more than once a year.

I find optometry very, very useful to me. Frequency of access and value derived from a thing have no necessary relationship.

Re:Inside the OED: can the world’s biggest dictionary surviv... by forapurpose on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @01:16AM (#16471448)
> But unlike most everyone here, I'm acknowledging that the value I get from the OED is purely entertainment value, not utility.

The premise of this comment is that everyone must agree with it (they just aren't admitting it). I'm sure there's a word for that ...

Re:Inside the OED: can the world’s biggest dictionary surviv... by thaumasiotes on Tuesday February 27, 2018 @03:00AM (#16471799)
The premise of the comment is that it is true for almost everyone, not that they realize it's true.
Re:Inside the OED: can the world’s biggest dictionary surviv... by forapurpose on Sunday February 25, 2018 @06:27PM (#16461837)
> the OED is primarily a work of historical scholarship. Anyone in the market for a dictionary so that they can look up the meanings of words would be better off getting something else

I couldn't disagree more strongly. I use it to learn the meanings of words and there is no better source:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16461549

Re:Inside the OED: can the world’s biggest dictionary surviv... by thaumasiotes on Sunday February 25, 2018 @06:31PM (#16461857)
If you want to know the meaning of words hundreds of years in the past, the OED is a good choice. That question is relevant to almost no one. If you want the current meaning, the OED is a poor choice.
Re:Inside the OED: can the world’s biggest dictionary surviv... by bloak on Monday February 26, 2018 @04:46AM (#16464202)
I'd disagree with "almost no one". Lots of people still read books and texts that were composed in the past - it's even compulsory at school - and lots of people have a hobbyist interest in etymology. If I look a word up in a smaller dictionary than the OED I usually find it doesn't tell me anything I didn't already know, or it just raises questions that send me to the OED anyway. Of course you wouldn't use the OED to look up a technical term. Wikipedia would be better for that.

What I really love about the OED is how it keeps getting better even in its coverage of old words. There are lots of words which ten or twenty years ago had the etymology given us "unknown" but which now have a detailed explanation, thanks to recent research. (If you want an example, I think the word "koala" is one.)

Re:Inside the OED: can the world’s biggest dictionary surviv... by forapurpose on Monday February 26, 2018 @05:03PM (#16469388)
> If you want the current meaning, the OED is a poor choice.

That's simply not true. The OED has the current meanings, in more depth than anyone else.

> That question is relevant to almost no one.

Also not true. Most books and other texts were written before 2018.

Re:Inside the OED: can the world’s biggest dictionary surviv... by dragonwriter on Monday February 26, 2018 @05:10PM (#16469438)
> That's simply not true. The OED has the current meanings, in more depth than anyone else.

The printed OED does not, though there have been separate print supplements to the print edition that get it closer.

The online edition, OTOH, does.

Re:Inside the OED: can the world’s biggest dictionary surviv... by forapurpose on Monday February 26, 2018 @06:03PM (#16469787)
It depends on how fast the meaning of that particular word has changed.

Tangentially, is there a better use case for moving to a database than 20+ volumes of books? To put it another way, if someone had a database and said, 'hey, let's print this thing out - it will be around 20 large books - and sell it!' ...

Re:Inside the OED: can the world’s biggest dictionary surviv... by shullbitt0r on Sunday February 25, 2018 @06:53PM (#16461963)
Because that's cheating! I'm half kidding but you are arguing about price, mainly. Not why the cheaper (free?) content is lacking. You could also just afford a personal teacher and taken to the extreme, a personal translator so you wouldn't need to learn the language at all, which would be cheating. Except that you might have a personal desire to speak the language. What's the problem with Chinese that free offerings are inferior?

It is just chaotic is all I could infer from a first look. I mean English can be pretty messy already and maybe a specific Chinese dialect will be more regular than the bigger picture of the whole language. It's not that your coeds were being cheap, perhaps, it could just be disappointment for something as basic to cost anything at all, and relieve that it's not their personal shortcoming, but just an externalized advantage. You seem to say not even $20 was low enough, have I got that right at least?

Re:Inside the OED: can the world’s biggest dictionary surviv... by KMag on Sunday February 25, 2018 @08:13PM (#16462295)
> Maybe a specific Chinese dialect will be more regular than the bigger picture of the whole language.

Standard written Chinese is based on the grammar of spoken Mandarin. If someone mentions a Chinese dictionary without mentioning a particular dialect, they're almost certainly referring to Standard Written Chinese (essentially Mandarin).

Also, Chinese is less a single language than the Romance languages are a single language. The more far-flung dialects share less in common than, say Italian and Spanish. If Portugal were a province of Spain, Portuguese would probably be considered a dialect of Spanish. As my Linguistics professor used to say, "A language is a dialect with an army." One rarely deals with "the whole Chinese language", if by that you mean the union of all of the dialects. That would be like dealing simultaneously with Romanian, Portuguese, Romansh, French, Italian and Spanish as a single entity.

Re:Inside the OED: can the world’s biggest dictionary surviv... by thaumasiotes on Sunday February 25, 2018 @09:56PM (#16462718)
> It's not that your coeds were being cheap, perhaps, it could just be disappointment for something as basic to cost anything at all

Dictionaries are not basic in the slightest. I'm constantly frustrated that the state of the art in Chinese/English dictionaries is still not very good.

Here's an example. The Mandarin word for "protect" is 保护 bǎohù. As a matter of semantics, protecting involves three roles: (1) the protector; (2) the beneficiary; (3) a danger to be warded off. In English, (1) is marked by being the subject of the verb protect, (2) is marked by being the object, and (3) is optionally marked by being the object of a complementary prepositional phrase headed by from: in

    1E. I will protect her from going hungry.
role (1) is "I", role (2) is "her", and role (3) is "going hungry".

A quality dictionary will include all of that information if you look up protect. But the state of the art in Chinese/English dictionaries is to note that 保护 is a verb, that it means "protect", and to provide a few example sentences, none of which feature role (3) at all. I had to ask a Chinese person how to indicate the danger involved in protecting, which it turns out is marked by an entire complementary clause:

    1Z: 我保护她免挨饿 wǒ bǎohù tā miǎn ái'è
Translating the syntax directly into English, this is something like "I protect her to avoid going hungry". There is no possible way of learning the correct usage of 保护 from a Chinese/English dictionary at the moment, as none of them saw fit to include this information. You're certainly not going to get there by analogy to English.