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Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by johntiger1 on Monday February 19, 2018 @04:04PM (#16415733)
While often disparaged these days, the US has long been one of the most charitable countries in the world both in terms of private citizen contributions and public government aid. Glad to see some of the good deeds finally being recognized!
Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by lostlogin on Monday February 19, 2018 @05:33PM (#16416300)
A lot is sent, but per head and as percentage of GDP it isn't high. As a country, it is the largest government sector donor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_development_aid_countr...

Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by adventured on Monday February 19, 2018 @06:06PM (#16416483)
That only shows government aid. The US is famous for its vast private charity.

Just Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and Mark Zuckerberg together will give away over 3x more than all the OECD countries on that list combined (on an annual basis). Or roughly equivalent to what Japan - the world's third largest economy - will do every ~35 years total.

Gates, Buffett, Zuckerberg, Bezos = plausibly $450 billion in combined charity over time (assuming Bezos spends ~$20 billion on space). France at the government level does $9 billion per year by comparison; it'll take France 40-50 years to match just those four private US citizens.

No other nation in world history has seen its richest citizens routinely give the bulk of their wealth away (from Carnegie & Rockefeller, to Howard Hughes, to Gates & Buffett). The scale of private US charity is unprecedented and amounts to trillions of dollars over a century of time.

Contrast that with eg Germany, where 65% of their billionaires inherited their wealth, or Europe broadly where dynastic wealth is extremely common:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2016/10/10/where-...

Meanwhile in the US, over a hundred billionaires sign on to the Giving Pledge:

https://givingpledge.org/

Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by lostlogin on Monday February 19, 2018 @09:01PM (#16417299)
The parent said that the US government was one of the most charitable too and I was disputing that. There are some extremously generous private donors.
Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by plandis on Monday February 19, 2018 @10:00PM (#16417523)
Probably a lost in translation sort of thing but as an American I took that to include me, an individual, as I am a citizen of that country.
Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by pm90 on Monday February 19, 2018 @04:30PM (#16415900)
The US has always been disparaged for policy missteps that have resulted in much destruction around the world. The only reason it seems more evident now is probably due to easy access to information through the internet and the ability to share "disparaging" viewpoints more widely.
Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by dmix on Monday February 19, 2018 @08:36PM (#16417217)
Not to mention how much war, conflict, and death it prevents due to power projection.
Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by refurb on Monday February 19, 2018 @05:05PM (#16416129)
Knowing just how much anti-Americanism exists on HN, I'm not sure why I assumed this wouldn't be downvoted.
Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by adventured on Monday February 19, 2018 @05:19PM (#16416218)
Well consider the extreme history absurdism going on here, that is being upvoted.

A very small contingent of US soldiers is involved in an allied invasion of Russia. Mostly those US soldiers do nothing, two hundred die (half from disease), they go home a very short time later having done almost nothing at all in terms of conflict. Then in this thread, that is being blamed for the forced Communist famine deaths of millions of Russians and Ukrainians.

It's the ultimate combination of Communism apologism (apologizing for the mass genocide and slaughter of millions of people under Lenin's policies), and blame America for everything'ism. And all of that is happening in the thread for an article that is about how Americans altruistically contributed historically vast quantities of food to keep millions of other people from starving to death.

Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by zipwitch on Monday February 19, 2018 @07:09PM (#16416822)
I suspect what you are seeing is a reaction, or over-reaction, to how Americans have long censored our own history. Once you figure out the official (accepted, schoolbook, popular) depiction of history edits out the nastiest bits in favor cheerleading, the presumption that anything "left out" should be taken in the worst possible light comes naturally. This is especially true when the information in question ("The US invaded Russia? And we just dont mention it?!) seems so potentially loaded and relevant to current world events.
Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by boomboomsubban on Monday February 19, 2018 @11:17PM (#16417817)
>Then in this thread, that is being blamed for the forced Communist famine deaths of millions of Russians and Ukrainians.

That sounds more like the famine of 1932 rather than the famine of 1921 being discussed here. In 32, you can directly point to policies put in place responsible for the famine. In 21, much of it was due to civil war that the US participated in by providing troops and resources.

Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by gandhium on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @02:47PM (#16423515)
> due to civil war that the US participated in by providing troops and resources

US didn't provide any troops or resources to Russian Civil War. A few clashes with pro-Bolshevik bandits were from Japanese forces.

Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by boomboomsubban on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @05:19PM (#16424784)
Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by gandhium on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @05:52PM (#16425023)
So, the only verified facts are that US troops were securing the materials and defending against Bolshevik attackers.
Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by boomboomsubban on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @08:35PM (#16426090)
That's not all the facts, that's proof of my claim they "provided troops and supplies."
Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by gandhium on Wednesday February 21, 2018 @12:00PM (#16430877)
They've provided troops and supplies to _guard the war materials_.
Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by boomboomsubban on Wednesday February 21, 2018 @03:13PM (#16432556)
The war materials they were giving to the Whites to help them fight the civil war. This isn't controversial, the US openly backed the Whites in the war.
Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by gandhium on Wednesday February 21, 2018 @05:26PM (#16433546)
Did you read that Wiki article? War materials were given to support Tsarist Russia in WW1.
Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by boomboomsubban on Wednesday February 21, 2018 @06:18PM (#16433846)
That was the original reason for sending supplies to Russia and it had been going on for years. This expedition was after the fall of the Tzarists government, after Russia had exited WWI, and started months before the armistice.

And again, this is not all the actions taken by America in the conflict.

Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by gandhium on Thursday February 22, 2018 @03:32PM (#16441110)
What was the original reason? Sending supplies to Whites when there was no Whites?
Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by boomboomsubban on Thursday February 22, 2018 @06:13PM (#16442471)
Supplying Tzarists Russia started in like 1914. By the time being discussed, they were supplying the Whites.
Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by dandare on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @01:16AM (#16418214)
There surely is some irrational anti-americanism but don't confuse regular criticism with anti-americanism.
Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by gumby on Monday February 19, 2018 @04:29PM (#16415894)
I agree but (per my other comment on this topic) don't forget that the US had been invading Russia from the revolution to shortly before this famine.
Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by Fins on Monday February 19, 2018 @07:14PM (#16416860)
Had the allies really been invading Russia, the world would have been a much better place. Unfortunately, their role was very limited.
Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by BenSahar on Monday February 19, 2018 @09:08PM (#16417318)
It would have depended on which part(s) of the White Movement would have been included in the new government.

There were a lot of leaders in the movement that had no problem with autocracy as long as it was their autocracy.

Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by Fins on Monday February 19, 2018 @10:28PM (#16417637)
It is quite unlikely that any part of the Whites would have engaged in mass slaughter of its own citizenry at quite the same scale as communists.
Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by boomboomsubban on Monday February 19, 2018 @11:11PM (#16417794)
That's a pretty tough sell. The White terror was pretty terrible during the war, supposedly killing more people than the counterpart Red terror. And given the antisemitic nature of that killing, there are some incredibly grim possibilities for what the following years would have looked like.
Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by Fins on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @12:28AM (#16418064)
That looks like it came straight out of a Soviet textbook...

Even assuming high-end range for White Terror and low-end range for the Red one, it is not a given that whatever White faction might have theoretically won would continue to engage in persecution. For bolsheviks it is a given fact. By the 1920s they were happily gassing peasants.

And by the mid-40s USSR was quite antisemitic anyway, so I find it rather doubtful that a victory by any other party would have been worse than bolsheviks.

Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by boomboomsubban on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:08AM (#16418619)
>That looks like it came straight out of a Soviet textbook...

You really think a Soviet textbook mentioned the Red Terror?

>Even assuming high-end range for White Terror and low-end range for the Red one, it is not a given that whatever White faction might have theoretically won would continue to engage in persecution. For bolsheviks it is a given fact. By the 1920s they were happily gassing peasants.

Yes, there are hypotheticals that play out better than actual events. There are also many that play out similarly or worse.

Given the main warlords controlling the White forces, winning the war probably starts with a massive purge, fairly common in those situations. Those warlords would also have more in common with Facist Italy and Nazi Germany, leading to a potentially terrifying thirties.

Russian history is filled with tyrannical cruelty, before and after the Soviet era too. That wasn't likely to end with a civil war.

Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by Fins on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @03:53AM (#16418814)
I had to study Soviet textbooks. They definitly did mention it. Of course as a completely necessary response to those naughty Whites, and they completely glossed over concentration camps, mass executions etc. etc., but they did mention Red Terror.

Main warlords were generally tsarist generals who may or may not have went to the Provisional Government side, but at least they were generally somewhat educated and somewhat reasonable people. Which, of course, never stopped anyone from committing all kinds of atrocities, but at least one could expect that they would not, after the war was over, engage in mass slaughter for no logical reason whatsoever, which is what bolsheviks did.

Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by ericd on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @01:46AM (#16418301)
Given that the Reds killed tens of millions of their own during peacetime, the odds are against it having been as bad the other way.
Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by sorokod on Tuesday February 20, 2018 @08:43AM (#16420211)
Many ( most? ) of the killed were not "red" or even ethnically Russian ( see for example https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor ). Many of the "reds" were not ethnically Russian either. Your "of their own" doesn't really makes sense.
Re:The American Relief Expedition to Soviet Russia in the Fa... by ericd on Wednesday February 21, 2018 @02:04PM (#16431976)
I meant their own people. People under their rule.