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Re:OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble by RosanaAnaDana on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:56PM (#16394821)
I've found that in terms of supporting any kind of additional analysis, OSM data to be unreliable to the point of uselessness, which isn't to say there is a better alternative. I think this quote from your article: "One of the most significant technical problems with OSM is the lack of a review model, that is for a change to the map to be staged and then reviewed before being applied. Not having this functionality caused ripples of problems throughout the system, some of which I'll discuss here." is the primary reason I can't regularly use OSM data. Trust me when I say there are millions of instance where having reliable data regarding streets could save me time/ stress. Do you have any thoughts on how to improve the quality of OSMaps? Conceptually, I feel like the product is indispensable. In practice, I feel like the product is utterly unusable.
Re:OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble by bonzini on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:21PM (#16395115)
As an occasional OSM editor, I wouldn't really feel good about moderation. My edits are limited basically to my home town (10.000 inhabitants, about 10 sq km) where I am adding unmapped roads (usually agricultural, sometimes new construction) that I "discover" while running. I started doing that simply because Runkeeper's website uses OSM and it was showing me running in the middle of nowhere, while there was actually a small road leading to my grandfather's place. (And FWIW Google doesn't have agricultural roads at all, which kinda sucks for running even slightly out of the beaten path).

My edits are probably not perfect, but while somebody cared about mapping the town in the first place, it was out of date enough that probably nobody would bother to approve or perfect my changes. Having them rejected would probably have caused me to stop contributing too.

What kinds of issues and vandalisms did you experience?

Re:OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble by smichel17 on Friday February 16, 2018 @03:21PM (#16395738)
I've contributed small-time to the Musicbrainz cd database, and I think they do it pretty well. New additions are automatically approved. Edits are accepted or rejected after a voting period (3 days, iirc). If nobody votes, they're approved by default; I believe (but am not certain) they are rejected in the case of a tie.

I think the beauty of this system is that it gives complete autonomy with no oversight to individuals dealing with obscure data that nobody else cares about, while more popular data is subjected to higher scrutiny.

Re:OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble by maxerickson on Friday February 16, 2018 @03:46PM (#16396012)
This is more or less how OSM works now, except there is no waiting period. But undoing a recent edit is pretty straightforward, so there is a similar effect.
Re:OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble by Leo_Verto on Wednesday February 21, 2018 @11:01PM (#16435062)
I may be a bit late to this post but as a contributor to both projects, I think the main difference here is that MusicBrainz is all about trying to prevent data deletions in favour of data merges, which will be resolved to the new object while OSM pretty much only cares about the look in the end.

So in OSM it's perfectly acceptable to delete an object and re-create it whereas in MusicBrainz deletions are very much frowned upon.

This means that you often can't really track changes to a single OSM object which would be pretty much necessary for implementing robust rollback behaviour.

Re:OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble by splonk on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:05PM (#16396898)
I used to work on user generated content in maps. Business vandalism is a big problem once you reach a certain scale. It's possible that OSM doesn't have this problem yet because it's not as valuable a target as Google/Apple/Bing. I'm not super familiar with what's available on OSM these days, but an unscrupulous locksmith might try to make competing locksmiths unreachable by moving their address to a distant location (locksmiths and taxi companies were notorious for attempted vandalism in the past).

Map additions are probably generally safe, although there are some spammy ones for various reasons. Map edits are basically all suspect because you never know when someone is trying to sabotage something.

Re:OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble by tordanik on Friday February 16, 2018 @07:21PM (#16397917)
Business vandalism is certainly a plausible threat for OSM. Something we've also had to deal with are political issues escalating into edit wars, i.e. where the border between countries is supposed to be, which language the labels on a contested part of the map should be in and so on.

I think it's good to keep in mind that OSM already has moderation, though, just not in the shape of a formalized approval process. Instead, edits go live instantly – but are inspected, discussed and possibly undone afterwards. So while vandalism does get through at first, it will hopefully be short-lived enough that it does not pay off for the vandal.

Ultimately, I believe it comes down to weighing priorities based on the project's current needs. OSM's current approach lowers the bar for contributors and rewards them with instant gratification when the change is visible on the map right away. Because of that, I believe it makes sense when your focus is on growing the community. Stricter moderation makes sense once the primary focus switches from growth to preserving the valuable database you've already built.

Looking at Wikipedia, for example, they started out with a setup resembling OSM's current model, and switched to a more strict moderation process only once they had grown large enough to become the world's default encyclopedia.

Based on my personal experiences in OSM, vandalism is not yet a big enough problem to justify stricter moderation practices. But of course that is a matter of opinion to some degree.

Re:OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble by zo1 on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:04PM (#16398146)
It's already a problem. Go look at the history tab for any moderately large town in OSM. You'll find gigantic edits overlapping the area you're trying to look at. The reason for that is someone posting changes/additions onto map locations on separate countries and/or continents, so it intersects with your small town regardless if the changes were near it.

Those edits are usually people adding useless businesses and phone-numbers. I've seen people advertising bitcoin-related business and general spam.

Re:OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble by StudentStuff on Friday February 16, 2018 @03:10PM (#16395626)
I'd be surprised if your edits would be rejected. More likely, whoever was doing QA would make a few minor alignment adjustments based on satellite data and any county data they could glean (the latter is likely where all the road data came from).

Moderation isn't the worst idea, OSM in many areas basically has large scale edit wars, wasting editors time as they fight over road and building alignment with other editors that don't realize Microsoft's satellite data is 20ft off from reality.

Re:OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble by emacsen on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:59PM (#16394856)
This was a hard post to make. OSM was a big part of my life for many years, and I have friends in the project. I like my friends (even the ones I disagree with).

But where OSM has failed most in my view (and maybe I need to add this to the article) is that there are now free geographic datasets from local governments and without the ability to integrate them into OSM easily, and then update them (which we basically can't do), I fear OSM is going to ultimately fail at its mission

Re:OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble by lucb1e on Friday February 16, 2018 @03:19PM (#16395720)
Where do you have experience with OSM data anyway? Because your view of the project differs from mine as day differs from night. The quality in western Europe is equal to or better than commercial maps. And the one time I looked at a random, small village in the Sahara, OSM was also better: https://twitter.com/lucb1e/status/522491538912604160
Re:OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble by piracykills on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:05PM (#16394925)
Is OSM not doing this? I swear I've seen them importing and updating street level address data in my city - it directly referenced some city GIS server. Maybe not officially, but someone must be running scripts that do this?
Re:OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble by Avamander on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:16PM (#16395061)
Somebody might be doing that for their area but for example I haven't seen that happen in Estonia where the government provides absolutely excellent data but there's no easy and meaningful way getting that data into OSM
Re:OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble by Zverik on Sunday February 18, 2018 @11:58AM (#16406909)
But it did happen. A few years ago we (as in estonian + russian communitites) helped import building outlines and most roads to OSM: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/imports/2013-March...
Re:OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble by piracykills on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:39PM (#16395316)
Seems more like a few hour long hacking session than some serious systemic problem to me.
Re:OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble by dfox on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:59PM (#16395535)
I would stress the "meaningful" part. I assume that every country in EU gives out CC0 (or so) licensed data for at least geocoding that have the same EU-wide high-level hierarchical format. Problem is that this hierarchy does not map well to OSM tags (which is one instance of problems caused by using tags instead of layers) and often also does not map well to local users' expectations (ie. converting the object names to/from handwritten address is non-trivial problem). Also sometimes the government provided data tends to be stale.
Re:OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble by zo1 on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:18PM (#16396984)
Stale or not, this seems like a ridiculously complicated problem without some set of rules/boundaries to govern it. I.e. You're doing a diff with spatial data that not only differs in the spatial component, but in the semantic/descriptive domain as well.
Re:OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble by Doctor_Fegg on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:40PM (#16397188)
> I assume that every country in EU gives out CC0 (or so) licensed data for at least geocoding that have the same EU-wide high-level hierarchical format.

Far from the case, I'm afraid.

Re:OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble by emacsen on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:04PM (#16394918)
I went ahead and added a small section on this.
Re:OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble by toomuchtodo on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:01PM (#16394878)
Is this a technology issue? Or a funding issue?
Re:OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble by maxerickson on Friday February 16, 2018 @03:00PM (#16395547)
It's frequently a licensing issue and then also a resources issue.

There's relatively generalized tools for diffing data against OSM and outputting a change file, but lots of data is released using ambiguous or slightly incompatible licensing.

One example is http://blog.improve-osm.org/en/2018/01/new-features-and-enha...

Re:OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble by croshan on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:04PM (#16394922)
Seems more like a political issue
Re:OpenStreetMap Is in Trouble by MayeulC on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:41PM (#16395341)
How would a layered maintainer model similar to the one of the Linux kernel work on a project like OSM? Have a Continent maintainer, a region maintainer, a country maintainer, a town maintainer, etc... all pulling only "good" edits. I think this approach could work, couldn't it?