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Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by tomlock on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:13AM (#16390306)
How many more instances of this happening do we need before people believe there's actually a problem in society surrounding sexism? Honestly I expect to see equivocation more than indictment in the comments section here.
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by yason on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:48AM (#16390421)
I don't think this is anything new at all in itself. Chats, anonymous comments, forums, public walls, etc just allow these weirdos to express themselves out of that place of theirs that is unattached to reality.

Already in the 90's there were a few handfuls of pesterers of the similar kind on IRC. There would've been more but IRC was such a nerdy tool underground that only a few of them ever found themselves there.

But the phenomenon has there for a long time: it's just that before internet there were few places where you could do this in public. I think most of the similar chatter must have happened between male friends of young age, hanging out and exchanging comments on hot-looking passer-bys and maybe wooing after some or alternatively yelling bitchy remarks.

Even this wouldn't be tolerated in better parts of the town. But on the internet, all you need is a text input box.

Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by salvar on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:10AM (#16391258)
There always seems to be a good crowd of people that start with the assumption that there is actually no problem in society with sexism, and therefore there must be some other explanation. That's when the "But what if" and "Maybe the sample was" get dragged out.
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by randyrand on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:06AM (#16390498)
I don't think you could find many people that disagree that men and women are treated differently in many aspects of life.

I think people disagree on the severity of the problem and what more should be done about it, if anything.

Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by tziki on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:06AM (#16390496)
Perhaps because according to studies men are actually more likely to experience online harrasment?

http://www.pewinternet.org/2017/07/11/online-harassment-2017...

Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by tomlock on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:14AM (#16390534)
Your interjection here isn't answering a question I asked. Are you saying that because men are more likely to face harassment, that women are not harassed more when they present as women online?
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by guy98238710 on Friday February 16, 2018 @03:13AM (#16390746)
Your comment doesn't make sense. If the self-reported harassment numbers are correct, it means this case is an exception, not the rule. As for why is it an exception, see other comments about bots, fake photos, and target audience of the site.
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by tziki on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:19AM (#16390555)
I think it answers the question quite well. Since men are harrassed more online, they tend to be unsympathetical when women complain of online harrasment, knowing women already experience somewhat less harrasment than men.
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by tomlock on Friday February 16, 2018 @07:52AM (#16391957)
Sorry, what question did I ask that you think this report is answering?
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by tziki on Friday February 16, 2018 @08:12AM (#16392058)
"Why isn't HN condemning the harrassment here more unequivocally?"
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by tomlock on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:52PM (#16396786)
That's not what I asked.
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by tziki on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:38PM (#16397163)
The only direct question in your original comment is a rhetorical one. Do you really expect people to answer to that and not to your further comment wondering about the disparity between your expectation and reality?

Either you have people replying to your rhetorical question and generating exactly zero discussion of value, or explaining to you why your expectation differs from reality. Clearly no one will do the first.

Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by tomlock on Friday February 16, 2018 @06:24PM (#16397508)
What do you think my expectation was?
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by mirimir on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:37AM (#16390380)
Its more than sexism. It's misogyny. Or sarcastic emulation of misogyny, for trolling. Which has the same impact on targets.

However, it's hard to know how prevalent these attitudes and behavior are. Because observations aren't independent. One asshole posts on some chan about a fun target, and then his friends compete with each other. And it could even be scripted.

Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by tomlock on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:48AM (#16390420)
Or it could be a pattern repeated over thousands of years that requires serious intervention.
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by b6 on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:01AM (#16390474)
> misogyny

I keep seeing this word being used, and I don't think it's apt. I don't think we're seeing "dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women", much less "hatred of women".

I think it's much closer to the truth to say that people everywhere are extremely interested in and enamored of women, but that women provide some kind of easy target for expression of bad feelings or trolling.

As a former troll, I can say nobody really wants to mess with Eric Lu because there's just no troll juice there. A guy would just laugh at those "mean" comments. I certainly have laughed at comments like that. Nobody wants to troll me because the comments just can't get any purchase.

So, please, let's stop with the myth that people hate women. People love women, guys have been dying for women since forever, and it's certainly not because they have contempt for them or hate them. There's clearly a discriminatory thing going on here, but its root is not hatred of women.

Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by tomlock on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:09AM (#16390512)
>A guy would just laugh at those "mean" comments.

>People love women

What are these statements based on?

Meanwhile, the vast majority of domestic violence victims, and the victims of murders where the assailant was in a relationship with the murderer, are women. This idea that "people love women" is not reality based.

Plenty of men have spoken out about how toxic and awful online culture can be. It's not too hard to find examples.

Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by b6 on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:17AM (#16390551)
> What are these statements based on?

I have personally laughed at comments much worse than those in the post, directed at me, and so have my friends. All my male friends and my dad and my friends' dads and so forth love women -- they would die for women.

What I'm trying to say is, people bring out this word "misogyny" to make a claim about the origin of a problem, when the origin is unclear, or at least much more complicated than "hatred of women". Let's just agree about the clear evidence that there is discriminatory behavior and not insist on absolute certainty as to why it is happening.

Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by MarinReiter on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:01AM (#16390949)
Wew lad, I can't believe I'm saying this, but you either don't understand women or don't understand love.

Women dont want you to die for them. That's your own need for chivalrious purpose, you selfishly romanticizing your own (or your male friends') sacrifice. I dont know if you've ever had someone sacrificing themselves for you, but lemme tell you first hand, it's not nice, and it makes you feel like shit. Women, and everyone for that matter, are adults, so they don't need someone sacrificing themselves for them. Why would you die for someone, when that person is capable of complete independance? The "love you to death" love isn't really love, it's obsession, and it's unhealthy. And it's either "women are an easy target for trolling" or "people love women". I dont know what kind of twisted love makes you harass your object of desire online.

I can think of a million different ways to harass Eric. Everyday men are also harassed online, usually for not being "masculine" enough. So why are people more likely to harass Julia or Rachel and not Eric?

Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by b6 on Friday February 16, 2018 @04:20AM (#16391008)
I'm not talking about what women want, I'm saying that I know firsthand that many men I know love the women in their lives very much, much more than life itself. That's all.

There certainly are men out there who hate women, but it doesn't seem to me to be very many. Try it, enumerate the men you know and ask yourself, or even ask them directly, if they love the women in their lives. What fraction of women haters do you find? I think you'll find it's very low. And that's my point, that we are not actually facing an epidemic of misogyny ("hatred of women"), that it is actually something else, or at least much more complicated.

Personally I don't find it hard to come up with another explanation: miserable people want other people to be miserable too. And to make people miserable, you do whatever will be effective. Over the internet, mean words work a lot better against women than against men.

Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by bloak on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:20AM (#16391306)
Your last paragraph is totally correct, in my opinion.

(It is probably also true that many people who use "racist" insults are not really being "racist"; they are just insulting in an effective, target-specific way. If they couldn't come up with a racist insult, but the target has glasses, they'd probably resort to "four-eyes". I'm talking about the UK here, by the way.)

Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by mirimir on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:35PM (#16398562)
If someone is being "just insulting in an effective, target-specific way" that comes across as racist, then they're being racist, no matter what they may really feel, or what they may think that they really feel. And it's the same for sexism or any other *ism.
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by bloak on Saturday February 17, 2018 @01:11PM (#16401839)
You may choose to use words in a way that deliberately obscures an important distinction in the real world but please accept that other people may choose not to.
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by mattbee on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:22AM (#16390573)
> I think it's much closer to the truth to say that people everywhere are extremely interested in and enamored of women, but that women provide some kind of easy target for expression of bad feelings or trolling.

You're not even convincing yourself here, dude. If you feel that women just are an outlet for your bad feelings, and you somehow can't keep a lid on that - you're a misogynist, whatever the shade.

Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by b6 on Friday February 16, 2018 @02:31AM (#16390611)
> If you feel that women just are an outlet for your bad feelings, and you somehow can't keep a lid on that - you're a misogynist

Do bullies mistreat other kids because they hate children?

Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by salvar on Friday February 16, 2018 @05:13AM (#16391270)
Wait, are bullies then mistreating others because they really like them and are just trolling?
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by b6 on Friday February 16, 2018 @06:20AM (#16391572)
The point is that if there is some reason bullies mistreat other children other than hatred of children, maybe there is some reason people mistreat women other than hatred of women.
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by salvar on Friday February 16, 2018 @07:13AM (#16391751)
If we assume that all mistreatment has the same source. I wouldn't make that assumption, but if you want to explain away the possibility of misogyny being a problem then you certainly can.
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by b6 on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:24AM (#16392496)
> If we assume that all mistreatment has the same source.

What I said doesn't require that, and I didn't assume that.

Actually I think it would be more reasonable if the people who are certain misogyny (again, just so we don't forget what this word actually means: "hatred of women") rules the world would provide evidence of the widespread hatred of women. If anything, I think the evidence is much stronger that people hate men.

Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by salvar on Friday February 16, 2018 @09:35AM (#16392564)
That is an impressive strawman you've built. Yes, if you assume that people you disagree with take the most extreme position possible ("are certain that misogyny rules the world") then yes, you can always be right! Good luck, I'm sure you can just make up some words of mine to argue against if needed.
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by _pmf_ on Friday February 16, 2018 @03:21AM (#16390770)
> How many more instances of this happening do we need before people believe there's actually a problem in society surrounding sexism?

I believe there is rampant sexism; what I don't believe is that the approach of treating all men as potential rapists and claiming that masculinity is toxic is working out (in fact, I think it exacerbates the problem; practically all mass shootings are a result of boys/men being systematically imbued with toxic shame).

But yeah, go wear those pussy hats if it makes you feel good.

Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by dazc on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:57AM (#16390454)
Do people not believe there's actually a problem in society?
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by tomlock on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:59AM (#16390469)
There are plenty of people out there who think the legal inequalities faced by women are now completely removed, and everything is therefore ok. Not only is that an incorrect premise, but its an incorrect conclusion - women face significant societal obstacles and pain just because they're women.
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by guy98238710 on Friday February 16, 2018 @03:16AM (#16390757)
So do men (hint: children are more important than money). This case might not be sexism though. It looks like they have a bias in their experiment that skews the results.
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by savanaly on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:20AM (#16390328)
Do comments like this help the situation in any meaningful way either, though?
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by tomlock on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:27AM (#16390355)
If you want, let me know if you think my comment helps or not and why, and we can talk about it.
Re:Why I don't use my real photo when messaging with custome... by JoachimSchipper on Friday February 16, 2018 @01:23AM (#16390347)
Any discussion of gender (or race, or ...) on HN tends to degrade into, well, look around in an hour. It would be good to change that.