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Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by akozak on Tuesday February 06, 2018 @08:10PM (#16321500)
I think he said in the press conference that they weren't planning to reuse the core or boosters. (But then mentioned later they wanted some of the parts? IDK)
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by Laforet on Tuesday February 06, 2018 @11:43PM (#16322294)
Correct, the engines were going to be retired anyway but they are keen to reuse the titanium grid fins on the boosters which cost a small fortune to make.

The core actually had older ablative grid fins made of aluminium so no great loss there[0].

[0]https://i.redd.it/l6s2bds7pl801.png

Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by 0xTJ on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @01:35AM (#16322649)
Have you seen an approximate price for those fins anywhere. I saw the interviews, but I want to know how expensive is expensive.
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by nigwil_ on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @02:59AM (#16322910)
Platinum is USD$32K per KG, so if the platinum grid fins are 100KG, then they would cost > $300K each just for materials. With 4 per booster that might be a million dollar price tag for the grid fins.
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by varjag on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @03:02AM (#16322917)
The fins are titanium, not platinum. The cost of material is negligible.
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by nigwil_ on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @05:02AM (#16323394)
Oops, you’re right my mistake
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by aquadrop on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @03:20AM (#16322974)
That would be $3200k for each, but they are made out of titanium, not platinum, and most of the cost is in the work, not material. I'd like to know the price too though.
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by philjohn on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @04:10AM (#16323183)
Yep - Titanium is notoriously difficult to work with.
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by dsfyu404ed on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @08:48AM (#16324323)
Titanium isn't particularly terrible to machine. Nothing is hard to machine if your budget can cover the correct tools and you machines can provide the right setting to run those tools.

Your typical mechanical engineer fresh out of school has incredibly limited experience when it comes to things that are not stupid-proof to work with (engineering programs have other priorities). They then go on to build specialized knowledge in various subjects and usually more on the design side, not the execution side. Of course someone who designs plastic molds or simulated impeller designs all day is going to create a black box around things that aren't their specialty. You don't care about how the impeller or mold is made other than knowing that it can be made, what its material properties are and knowing that actually making it involves a bunch of details you don't know so you offload it to a 3rd parts (for the same reasons someone else is having you design the impeller or the mold).

A bunch of engineers and otherwise smart people on the internet saying that titanium is like computer programmers saying residential electrical is complicated or web devs complaining about bash. It really doesn't mean much but people who have no experience with this things tend to think the people who only have a shred know what they're talking about.

It's not difficult. Most other people just know they don't know how to do it and that they don't know what they'd need to know to go about learning how.

Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by varjag on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @08:39AM (#16324260)
It's not that difficult. The more common alloys machine relatively easily; some of the tougher ones can be a pain but not much more than other special purpose materials like Inconel.
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by TomK32 on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @04:58AM (#16323378)
So difficult that the SR-71 leaked fuel before starts and had to be re-fueled right after take-off. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_SR-71_Blackbird#Fuel
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by votingprawn on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @06:10AM (#16323681)
The SR-71 took off with a small fuel load to reduce stress and improve engine-out performance, that is why it was refuelled immediately after take-off.

The mental image of it leaking so much fuel on the ground such that it needed immediate refuelling is a myth propagated extensively on the internet.

Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by jpitz on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @08:39AM (#16324259)
The characterization is/was also propagated by people who actually refuelled them, so I'm somewhat unconvinced it is a myth.
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by votingprawn on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @10:06AM (#16324834)
I believe if you look for primary sources like pilots and ground handlers/mechanics you'll mostly find reference to small leaks (I think they were referred to as drips caught in cookie trays).

I had a quick search and found the KC135 chap who says the refuelling was needed due to leaks, but without being rude to him I'm not sure he's really a qualified source for that information. It sounds more to me like 2+2=5.

I'm procrastinating so lets do some napkin maths, the claim is

1) a significant amount of fuel is leaking out of the expansion gaps,

2) climbing up to 25,000 ft at 300 knots would heat the airframe enough to seal those gaps,

3) there would still be sufficient expansion room to allow for travelling at M3.2

----

Ignoring that no engineer would be happy with 1.

For 2...Total Air Temp = Static Air Temp + Ram Rise. At 25,000 ft the static air temperature is about -35 C. Ram rise for a true airspeed of 300 kts:

RamRise = V^2 / 87^2 = 300^2 / 87^2 = 12 degrees.

So skin temperature at typical refuelling altitude would be -23 C

Titanium has an expansion coefficient of 9E-69 meters per meter-kelvin. So approximating rather grossly, assuming a s tarting temperature of 20 C over the 33 m length of the plane there would be a contraction of about 1 cm.

----

And for 3:

The aircraft then accelerates up to 1900 knots. RamRise = 1900^2 / 87^2 = 470 degrees

Static air temp at over 60000 ft is roughly -55 C. So skin temperature would be 420 C. So assuming the same length and starting temp, the plane would expand by around 11 cm

----

So to summarise: According to the claims, at ground level and temperature the expansion gaps were large enough to significantly leak fuel. After take-off the aircraft needs to be refuelled immediately. Assuming this is done so (i.e. take-off, climb to 20,000, refuel) then the skin temperature is lower than ground level, and the expansion gaps should have grown ever so slightly. The aircraft then climbs up to its M3.2 cruise point and everything expands significantly "as designed" and the gaps disappear.

----

Perhaps the anecdote we'll see on the internet now is that the SR-71 had to take off and go supersonic to rapidly heat up the skin before briefly decelerating to refuel, but the refuel had to be done super fast to stop the skin cooling down too far...

Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by jpitz on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @11:19AM (#16325451)
My primary source is my father, who was a senior NCO responsible for fueling operations. It was his job to know.
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by votingprawn on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @12:47PM (#16326398)
Fair enough, no point trying to dispute a family anecdote!
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by nsnick on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @08:29AM (#16324213)
The SR-71 leaked fuel before takeoff because it needed separation distance between parts to allow for expansion. It had nothing to do with the difficulty machining titanium.

From your source: "Fuselage panels were manufactured to fit only loosely on the ground. Proper alignment was achieved as the airframe heated up and expanded several inches.[30] Because of this, and the lack of a fuel-sealing system that could handle the airframe's expansion at extreme temperatures, the aircraft leaked JP-7 fuel on the ground prior to takeoff."

Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by jpitz on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @05:19AM (#16323474)
The Blackbirds leaked because they had engineered gaps to allow for heat expansion.
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by wand3r on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @09:12AM (#16324474)
I bet SpaceX could engineer something in spec that wouldn't leak fuel or need to be immediately refueled though.
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by oceanswave on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @10:17AM (#16324922)
And we’re also comparing an aircraft designed in the late 1950’s and built in the early 60’s by slide rule (while still being extremely accurate) to modern spacecraft having the benefit of decades of materials and design technology
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by dsfyu404ed on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @08:39AM (#16324257)
That has nothing to do with titanium and everything to do with material expansion, the design/shape of the assembly and ambient vs operating temp.
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by bobajob23 on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @09:19AM (#16324517)
Cant reply directly to wand3r for some reason. Re his comment spacex could engineer something that wouldn't leak or need instant refuelling - I wouldn't be surprised if they could - but they have around 30 years of advancements to help them!
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by votingprawn on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @10:22AM (#16324968)
They could do it back then too.

If you dig past the internet comments and read some of the "primary source" books, the picture of the leaks is very different. I can't remember the exact book I read it in, but the author states there was a tank sealant, and it lasted around 50 hours (I think), before it needed to be replaced.

This is somewhat backed up by the Jenkins book [1] which talks about the time consuming process of replacing sealant, and the Graham book [0] that is the source for the Wikipedia claims on expansion. It talks of different sealants used, and how leaks were precisely noted and collected in _shallow_ drip trays.

[0] https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dX5cCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA129&dq...

[1] https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=lEpWE748QUsC&q=sr71+seal...

Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by epanchin on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @09:12AM (#16324473)
KU Leuven states the grid fins at 41kg. (The same volume of material would be 193kg in platinum)
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by gameswithgo on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @01:03AM (#16322539)
ahh, I noticed that in the feed and was wondering why. I guess they expected it was the least likely to work? or needed the better grid fins less because of the cylindrical top
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by josu on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @01:23AM (#16322615)
Can they still recover them?
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by mxvzr on Tuesday February 06, 2018 @08:22PM (#16321566)
If I understood properly none of the boosters were block 5 so they weren't looking at re-flying them.

They are however interested in recovering the grid fins on the side boosters, which were redesigned to accommodate for the nose cones now sitting on top of them.

Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by abledon on Tuesday February 06, 2018 @09:14PM (#16321770)
Smart that they used old pre-block5 parts for this test flight. (Not that I expected any less from those folks!)
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by dmix on Tuesday February 06, 2018 @08:57PM (#16321697)
Block 5?
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by dtparr on Tuesday February 06, 2018 @09:25PM (#16321815)
The latest hardware revision that's expected to be the mainstay for F9 flights going forward. Has better performance and addresses some reusability issues discovered in earlier blocks.
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by jotm on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @05:31AM (#16323528)
But if they weren't on this flight, how sure is SpaceX that they are more reliable?

But yeah, that's just a question from my mind. This launch was amazing, the future in the making right here.

Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by MayeulC on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @07:23AM (#16323938)
As far as I know, the center core was a block five one, but they didn't intend to refly it anyway, from what Elon said in the press conference. Maybe they intended to study it? If that's the case, there will probably be another "expandable" block five flight.
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by collinmanderson on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @07:44AM (#16324017)
According to reddit, even the center core (B1033) was Block 3. No block 5 cores have flown yet.

https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/wiki/cores#wiki_.5Bfh.5D_b10...

Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by mohaine on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @08:50AM (#16324334)
The plain is to lock down block 5's design so it can be man rated which in itself would make it more reliable. This will probably not happen until they fly them a few times though so that wouldn't mean the first block 5s would be more reliable.
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by rocqua on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @09:28AM (#16324573)
I recall reading or hearing yesterday that space-x no longer plans to man-rate any falcon-9s instead reserving that for the BFR.
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by dtparr on Wednesday February 07, 2018 @09:51AM (#16324727)
I believe that was in reference to the Falcon Heavy, not the F9. The F9 is expected to be man-rated for NASA's commercial crew program.
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by erikpukinskis on Tuesday February 06, 2018 @09:05PM (#16321739)
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by pi-rat on Tuesday February 06, 2018 @09:01PM (#16321720)
Version 5 of the falcon design.
Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by Cogito on Tuesday February 06, 2018 @09:29PM (#16321832)
To be perhaps slightly more accurate, it's like a major version 5.

Almost (if not) all missions include changes of some kind; the manufacturing blocks each have significant, incompatible differences in parts.

Upgrading the grid fins would be a minor version change, modifying the engine to increase its throttle depth a major one. I don't know, but it seems like there would need to be significant re-tooling for each new block, and many parts would be incompatible with previous blocks.

Re:SpaceX’s Falcon Heavy successfully launches by volkl48 on Tuesday February 06, 2018 @11:26PM (#16322238)
Even if they're not reusing any of it (this time), it's still very useful to examine and analyze how well it's held up.

Perhaps some piece of metal is showing more fatigue than they'd like to see, or a wire had damage to the insulation from a vibration. I'm sure that's the sort of thing they'll be looking at.