News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:A Company That Tears Cars Apart to Find Out How They're B... by sxates on Monday February 05, 2018 @05:33PM (#16312859)
One of those companies is a multi-million dollar client for them, and one is not.
Re:A Company That Tears Cars Apart to Find Out How They're B... by Bluestrike2 on Monday February 05, 2018 @09:52PM (#16314099)
I've seen similar comments everywhere I stumbled across this story. It's an easy takeaway, but that's not how automakers look at competitive benchmarking. Working with a company like Munro is an engineering decision. Munro breaks cars down, reverse engineers everything they possibly can, and draws as many conclusions about production methods as possible. Engineers with other automakers use this data to learn from how others approach problems.

The engineers don't give a damn about a Munro PR video about a competitor, period. It's a complete non-issue for them, and the same goes for their managers who are the ones who decide to work with Munro. They want to know every detail about how all the sausage is made (or what the sausage actually is). They don't care if the car is well made or poorly made; they're focused on the how; after all, even a car with severe quality control issues can offer useful insights. Besides, every peculiar (or even dumb) design or manufacturing decision they've made was previously laid bare by companies like Munro. Think of the process as something more like peer review or a morbidity and mortality conference for doctors. It's not a public process, despite something like this video.

Basically, the people who would care if Munro upset the company by speaking favorably about Tesla are the people who have no involvement in whether their company works with Munro in the first place. If someone from Ford marketing told Ford engineering to quit working with Munro because of a video, they'd be laughed at and promptly ignored.

Re:A Company That Tears Cars Apart to Find Out How They're B... by icc97 on Tuesday February 06, 2018 @07:07AM (#16315726)
The stuff that Munro is pointing out is so fundamental that I don't see how there's bias in it. The craziness that there is some hidden circle underneath the front hatch that you have to know to open and pull out a couple of leads to attach to a 12V battery is maddening. The fire department would have to do this to be able to cut the cable that's in the front hatch.

I can see there being a Model 3 recall over that kind of stuff. What's the point of over the air software updates if your hardware is unsafe.

Re:A Company That Tears Cars Apart to Find Out How They're B... by maxerickson on Tuesday February 06, 2018 @09:54AM (#16316531)
I'm curious what first responders think. I search a bit and found some Ford info, I looked at the 2013 electric focus here:

https://www.nfpa.org/Training-and-Events/By-topic/Alternativ...

The battery disconnect procedures there, using the high voltage service disconnects, start with lowering the back seat or jacking up the rear of the car.

Tesla provides the location of the little access panel on the quick response sheet here:

https://www.tesla.com/firstresponders

Requiring 12 volts to pop the hood is not great but it doesn't seem to be that much of a departure either.

Re:A Company That Tears Cars Apart to Find Out How They're B... by icc97 on Tuesday February 06, 2018 @12:06PM (#16317590)
If you compare it to having a lever by the driver as in any other car, that's 2 seconds to do vs them having to search on the Internet / find documents in the car then find the hole then connect up a battery.

The car could be upside down or on a very steep hill. It all seems pretty frightening stuff. You're basically just praying you don't have a serious crash which is back to the 60s.

I don't think that emergency procedures should be matched to other electric vehicles they should be matched to existing ICE cars.

Re:A Company That Tears Cars Apart to Find Out How They're B... by vsl on Thursday February 08, 2018 @02:08AM (#16330726)
What’s up with the fixation on connecting to 12V? Don’t you need to DISconnect and not the 12V,but the high voltage one?

That’s not a difficult procedure: open the hood (forcefully if need be, latch is in the front), cut the wire in the place marked in bright orange and labeled accordingly - and immediately visible and accessible upon opening the hood.

Re:A Company That Tears Cars Apart to Find Out How They're B... by crazysim on Monday February 05, 2018 @10:32PM (#16314254)
Maybe he's trying to sell his services to Tesla so he dialed up the prickiness.

"I'm calling this out about your car. You got quality problems. We can help."

Re:A Company That Tears Cars Apart to Find Out How They're B... by nebolo on Tuesday February 06, 2018 @12:02AM (#16314533)
I don't think Munro is in that business. Understanding how something is built is different from how to consistently and price effectively build it to specs/tolerances.
Re:A Company That Tears Cars Apart to Find Out How They're B... by Someone1234 on Monday February 05, 2018 @06:53PM (#16313349)
Instead of attacking their reputation, maybe pointing out actual flaws with the assessment as presented would be more constructive?
Re:A Company That Tears Cars Apart to Find Out How They're B... by avs733 on Monday February 05, 2018 @10:32PM (#16314251)
The counterfactual to this argument is that his clients would be much more likely to purchase his products if there was something to learn from a competitor like Tesla. They buy his services and reports to learn. If Tesla is vastly superior, and Munro understands how, that is critical to the Big three. Knowing or having some small boutique industry firm take pot shots at Tesla doesn't get them anything. This isn't being reported on NPR and CNN.

In reality, I think this has almost no impact on his business other than a little bit of publicity. Well run companies on the scale of GM are going to be just as interested in the data on a competitor whether their competitor is better or worse. There is always something to be learned. Ford is going to learn different things from Hyundai and from Mercedes...but they are going to learn.

Re:A Company That Tears Cars Apart to Find Out How They're B... by THE_PUN_STOPS on Monday February 05, 2018 @06:34PM (#16313255)
On the other hand, Munro is a company whose ability to sell products and services depends wholly on the veracity of their reports.
Re:A Company That Tears Cars Apart to Find Out How They're B... by rsp1984 on Monday February 05, 2018 @07:08PM (#16313431)
BMW certainly doesn't pay them to rip apart an i3. Their competitors do.
Re:A Company That Tears Cars Apart to Find Out How They're B... by gwern on Monday February 05, 2018 @07:19PM (#16313486)
BMW certainly might:

> Plus, the engineers told me, the cost models are proven. Some manufactures, they said, actually hand their own parts to Munro asking them to use their model to see how close they can get to the actual cost of manufacture. Munro says their numbers always come very close, and that they’ve even been accused of having insider information. Munro isn’t just there to help engineers learn about how the competition designs and assembles its cars, it’s also there to help automakers—who really should be called “auto assemblers”—figure out if they’re getting ripped off by their parts suppliers. Knowing exactly how much it costs to build a wheel bearing, for example, can act as leverage for negotiation against a supplier of that part. At the same time, suppliers also go to Munro to learn. If, for example, one of their competitors is selling a part for what seems like impossibly too little, the supplier might ask Munro to tear it down and figure out how the competitor is saving cost.

Re:A Company That Tears Cars Apart to Find Out How They're B... by icc97 on Tuesday February 06, 2018 @07:10AM (#16315739)
Hopefully Tesla takes seriously what Munro is saying.
Re:A Company That Tears Cars Apart to Find Out How They're B... by emmelaich on Monday February 05, 2018 @10:05PM (#16314144)
They should though. Much like IT companies pay bug bounties and penetration testers.
Re:A Company That Tears Cars Apart to Find Out How They're B... by icc97 on Tuesday February 06, 2018 @07:17AM (#16315770)
Perhaps suing companies is the judicial way of valuing bug bounties.
Re:A Company That Tears Cars Apart to Find Out How They're B... by devy on Monday February 05, 2018 @05:36PM (#16312877)
I suspected that as well - but any hints of evidence?

To be fair though, Tesla's manufacturing quality does indeed falling behind their targeted segment majorly. Like Munro said, even Kia makes better assembly these days (without uneven gaps etc.) But yes, have a paid contract for product promotion doesn't hurt