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Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by yummyfajitas on Monday August 23, 2010 @03:56PM (#1627832)
Please tell me which point I'm wrong on. Do most people not live in larger houses, enjoy greater automation of housework, enjoy larger and better entertainment technologies, and benefit from medical procedures which did not exist in 1967?
Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by jshen on Monday August 23, 2010 @04:10PM (#1627883)
I'm disputing the prediction that the future, if we remain on our current course, will be more of the same. Here's what you said, "If the past 40 years are a guide to the future". I'm disputing the idea that income inequality doesn't mean anything because the "poor" will have a higher standard of living that the middle class does today. Again, incomes are on the decline for most americans, and energy prices are rising. There is no way that we will get more of the same if that remains true.

Also, most people I know live in smaller houses than their parents, but that's purely anecdotal and based on the obvious fact that there are more people living on the same amount of earth. I happen to live in a major city.

Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by yummyfajitas on Monday August 23, 2010 @04:48PM (#1628004)
A quick google search finds many links suggesting house sizes have gone way up. This one says 1500ft^2 in 1973, 2500ft^2 in 2006.

http://www.realtor.org/RMODaily.nsf/pages/News2007032701?Ope...

In spite of the purported declining income and increasing energy prices, people in 2007 have more and better material goods and services than in 1967, far more than the mere $10k increase in real incomes would predict. You could be right, the next 40 years may be different from the last 40 - I'll leave predicting the future to you and Ray Kurzweil.

Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by aswanson on Monday August 23, 2010 @06:31PM (#1628293)
There was a ridiculous downgrade in credit quality to facilitate that build out of McMansions over the last 10 years . A better analysis of how much real income and how much purchasing power per sq foot of home would have to take in credit quality/debt into account over time to be anywhere near informative. Secondly, increasing energy prices are not purported, they are real: http://www.eia.doe.gov/EMEU/steo/realprices/index.cfm

Real income analysis would require more time than I'm willing to commit right now.

Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by jimbokun on Monday August 23, 2010 @09:12PM (#1628606)
That's an excellent visualization. Thanks for the link.
Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by jshen on Monday August 23, 2010 @05:20PM (#1628100)
"I'll leave predicting the future to you and Ray Kurzweil."

Except that you did try to predict the future earlier. Energy prices haven't risen much yet. You have an odd pattern of dodging my main point, and picking at tangential details.

Btw, I put a caveat on the house thing, I live in a major city and I'm sure it's different in most parts of the country. I'll bet this changes when driving long distances to work becomes much more expensive.

Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by yummyfajitas on Monday August 23, 2010 @05:35PM (#1628133)
I didn't try to predict the future - I explicitly qualified that everything I wrote applied only under certain circumstances: "If the past 40 years are a guide to the future..." You even quoted my qualification.

As for dodging your main point, let me address it more carefully now. You seem to believe that incomes (by which I assume you mean income adjusted for CPI) is decreasing. And yet, over a period in which CPI adjusted incomes remained flat, quality of life dramatically increased. So why do you believe that decreasing CPI-adjusted incomes are worth worrying about?

Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by jshen on Monday August 23, 2010 @06:11PM (#1628242)
" why do you believe that decreasing CPI-adjusted incomes are worth worrying about?"

I've said it at least three times already. Because it is highly probable that energy prices are going to increase significantly.

Btw, how do you measure quality of life. I always find it funny when people throw around that term relating to economics.

Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by yummyfajitas on Tuesday August 24, 2010 @10:18AM (#1629836)
You are concerned oil prices might increase by a factor of 8? Like in the 70's?

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article1375.html

In any case, I'm not sure what this has to do with CPI-adjusted incomes.

By quality of life, I'm only estimating the direction of change rather than the magnitude. I'm assuming that having more stuff is better - I'm happier with flush toilets/a washing machine/Bioshock than without.

Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by pchristensen on Monday August 23, 2010 @04:24PM (#1627935)
"most people I know live in smaller houses than their parents"

But do they live in smaller houses than their parents lived when they were your friends' age?

Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by jshen on Monday August 23, 2010 @05:15PM (#1628084)
yes, but I live in L.A. and I'm sure it's different in most parts of the country. I make way more money than my parents or grandparents, even when adjusted for inflation, but I live in a much smaller place than they did.
Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by nostrademons on Monday August 23, 2010 @05:42PM (#1628152)
I'm curious - do you live in a way smaller space than your parents did when you grew up, or when they were your age?

When I compare my current living space with the house I grew up in, it's significantly smaller. However, my parents were over 40 years old by the time I have my first memories. They'd been saving for close to 20 years to afford that place, while I've been saving for maybe 5 years.

When my mom was my age, she lived in a 4th floor walk-up with one of her friends from college. And yes, it was smaller than my current apartment. If you compare my mom's childhood with my childhood, she lived in a small apartment almost her whole life, until about 3 years before I was born, while I grew up in a house in the suburbs.

I wonder if this is behind a lot of the 20-something angst. We compare our current living standards to our living standards as children, and realize (correctly) that it's not as good. However, that childhood living standard is based on parents that were already at the peak of their careers, and had scrimped for years to get there. Of course we're not going to live as well.

Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by jshen on Tuesday August 24, 2010 @12:02AM (#1628889)
I'm not a 20-something.
Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by Unseelie on Tuesday August 24, 2010 @11:58AM (#1630149)
We're still safe to assume your parents are around 20 years older than you.
Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by jshen on Wednesday August 25, 2010 @04:04PM (#1633960)
right, but the comment I was replying to was focused on the idea that I'm an angstful 20-something who is just starting a professional career. I'm not, and i have a much smaller place than my parents did at my age. 1200 sq/ft vs 3000ish sq/ft. I think my theory holds for areas that have already developed most of the available land. As population density increases we'll have smaller places than the generation before us in areas that have very little new land to develop.

I actually don't care that my place is smaller, and a bigger place wouldn't increase my quality of life much.

Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by pchristensen on Monday August 23, 2010 @05:44PM (#1628156)
Touche. In order to get an accurate comparison, you'd have to compare to someone your age living in a city as large and dense as LA at the time they were your age. That probably means NYC, London, or Tokyo for your parents or grandparents since there weren't many megacities 30 or 60 years ago.
Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by jshen on Monday August 23, 2010 @06:14PM (#1628249)
Your trying to make the population density a constant, my point is that it isn't a constant, but will likely increase going forward.
Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by jhpriestley on Monday August 23, 2010 @09:00PM (#1628583)
Why is any of that relevant? If we're discussing poverty rates, then we need to come up with a reasonably objective metric for poverty, not just throw together some cherry-picked indicators. Economists have put a lot of thought into a few metrics, like inflation-adjusted median wage, which you simply ignore in favor of your own 'tv-size index'.

For example, those larger houses may be on cheaper land (further from cities), or people may be spending more of their income on housing (at the cost of, say, food quality, or education). There are a million ways for an individual statistic to be misleading. This is the whole reason that we use aggregated statistics like real median wage.

Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by Deezul on Monday August 23, 2010 @04:29PM (#1627953)
There is a big difference between that and going from poverty to upper middle class. By your logic those stuck in poverty in 1967 will now have graduated to upper middle class by 2010. Even if that is how you define middle class I don't see very great strides. I rent because the housing market is a mess (http://seekingalpha.com/article/115464-new-home-prices-vs-me...), I wash dishes by hand and don't care for an iRobot vacuum with a state of the art cat fascinating feature, health care is very costly or down right unattainable, but yes I do enjoy my Xbox 360. It hasn't convinced me of your point though.
Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by yummyfajitas on Monday August 23, 2010 @05:05PM (#1628062)
No, by my logic those living in poverty in 2010 will be living a life that the 1970's would describe as middle class.

Fun fact: the bottom 11% in 1970 didn't have flush toilets.

http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/database/article_display.cf...

In 2001, the bottom 7-8% don't have dishwashers, which were generally considered a luxury item in the 1970's. Go read this article, describing the material conditions of the poor (circa 2001):

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2004/01/understandi...

Tell me, what items did the middle class of 1970 have that the poor of 2001 lack?

Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by pchristensen on Monday August 23, 2010 @05:45PM (#1628161)
"what items did the middle class of 1970 have that the poor of 2001 lack?"

They're not items, but I'd say hope, stability, confidence, status, etc.

Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by nl on Tuesday August 24, 2010 @12:43AM (#1628985)
They're not items, but I'd say hope, stability, confidence, status, etc.

Really? In the US? In the 70's? This was at the end of the Vietnam War, during the oil crisis, remember?

As a random example consumer confidence at the lowest point during the financial crisis was still higher than it was in 1973 (during the Oil Crisis): http://useconomy.about.com/b/2008/04/01/consumer-pessimism-s...

Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by pchristensen on Tuesday August 24, 2010 @10:50AM (#1629935)
I'm guessing the middle class had more than the poor had.
Re:No, You can't retire rich at 30 if you sell your startup by sedachv on Monday August 23, 2010 @07:59PM (#1628475)
Not outside of the United States, Western Europe, and some parts of Asia and South America. What makes you think the same thing (over 50% reduction in GDP and almost ten million excess deaths) that happened following the bankruptcy of the USSR can not happen once the US is unable service its debt any longer?