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Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by sagichmal on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @03:36PM (#16268784)
Why is this form of self-reliance a virtue? To me, it looks pathological; certainly not something we should collectively be working towards.
Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by hathawsh on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:30PM (#16269230)
I'm upvoting you just for engaging in this conversation, even though I thoroughly disagree with you. :-)

The "distributism" described above is the dream of virtually every rural community. People choose to live in rural communities because it's a little piece of heaven for them: they are surrounded by people they know, they have clean air, the earth is right beneath their feet, the stars are bright, the pace is slow, and so on. They want to serve their neighbors and receive services from their neighbors. How is that mindset pathological?

I am always encouraged by innovations that help rural folks be more self-reliant so they can work toward their dream of self-sustaining, independent communities.

Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by scribu on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:49PM (#16269393)
The problem is that a small community can’t develop or even maintain advanced technology, including that required for sanitation and healthcare.

So, you either choose total independence and low technology or interdependence with other groups and advanced tech.

Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by hathawsh on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @05:04PM (#16269514)
Certainly. There will always be interdependence and rural communities understand that; that's why they drive modern pickup trucks rather than horse-drawn carriages. Still, they are always looking for ways to reduce their dependence on cities.
Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by tonyedgecombe on Thursday February 01, 2018 @03:14AM (#16280326)
Distributism includes the principle of subsidiarity, it doesn't exclude the fact that you need large organisations to produce some technology, just that you should tend towards the smallest organisation that can achieve what you need. Capitalism seems to be tending towards the opposite where the winner takes all.
Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by kbenson on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @05:07PM (#16269535)
Well, at least until we reach the science fiction utopian dream of nanoassemblers that can make nanoassemblers. Then rural communities could truly be independent.

Although that independence would be like a group of proto humans that knew about fire and how to use it, but not how to make it, and thus carefully guarded it and kept it fed, lest it go out.

Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by ehead on Wednesday January 31, 2018 @03:49AM (#16272469)
Do you think that we'll be able to escape making this tradeoff in the future? I don't think it's unreasonable to think that sanitation and healthcare technology will advance to the point that they can be implemented in smaller communities at similar levels of quality that could be seen in big cities.
Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by scribu on Wednesday January 31, 2018 @07:03AM (#16273208)
I hope we will have healthcare services that don’t require advanced knowledge or infrastructure to operate, but we’ll still need advanced tech to produce them.

I don’t see a way around this, since you always have to start from the same raw materials.

Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by blacksmith_tb on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @06:41PM (#16270151)
Wouldn't it also be possible to see that as rural residents putting on a brave face? The general trend has been towards urbanization globally for the past century or more, and relatively few young people growing up in rural communities seem to be interested in staying in them in the US[1].

1: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-06-20/rural-ame...

Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by adreamingsoul on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @07:11PM (#16270274)
That's not true. Almost every person I know in my generation is working hard to buy a piece of land in a rural community.
Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by tjr225 on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @08:23PM (#16270601)
While your experience might tell you that the reality is that is simply not true. You're countering a statistically sourced statement with an anecdote.
Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by bonesss on Wednesday January 31, 2018 @06:11AM (#16273022)
There are two actually statistics underlying the discussion here, and from my reading both points are right (though disagreeing that we're urbanizing is incorrect)...

1) Our general trend is towards urbanization, humanity is now more urban than rural, and every quality of life index shows cities give more good to more people better.

2) Millennials, hipsters in particular, in American markets with crushing real estate prices have recently begun reverse-migrating away from the cities and to more rural areas with romanticized lifestyles creating some new demographic, and real estate, trends.

In terms of pure statistics we're looking at a sub-group with a different trend than the overall group. Most potatos aren't from my backyard, but those potatoes are only getting prettier while the many thousands at the market are getting uglier ;)

Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by tjr225 on Wednesday January 31, 2018 @05:42PM (#16278216)
I'm totally in the camp who wants to move back to the Midwest and buy some acreage- my point was mainly that the person I responded to flat out stated that the parent commenter was wrong which is not the case.
Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by adreamingsoul on Thursday February 01, 2018 @04:57PM (#16286306)
Statistical significance aside, blanket statements such as what I responded to are simple, not true when compared to reality. I do not believe that humans can be unbiased when interrupting data to form a conclusive hypothesis. This is why the scientific community has a peer-review process to filter out biases.

However, I will agree that my initial response was lacking and would have been better if not stated at all.

Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by tjr225 on Saturday February 03, 2018 @02:21AM (#16296634)
:thumbsup:
Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by sagichmal on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @09:31PM (#16270861)
And every person I know in my generation is working hard to buy a flat in a major urban center. The plural of anecdote is not data.
Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by tonyedgecombe on Thursday February 01, 2018 @03:18AM (#16280348)
Isn't that just a reflection of where jobs are, which is in turn a reflection of our increasing specialisation. I know there are almost no jobs for computer science graduates within ten miles of the village I live in. The choice is to move to the city or work in the local supermarket.
Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by rublev on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @06:50PM (#16270193)
Too many bad actors involved to have a clear sight. Better to start from a clean slate.
Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by bgibson on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @03:56PM (#16268947)
Reducing interdependence in human society mitigates systemic risk. It absolutely is a virtue to be collectively working towards.
Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by sagichmal on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @09:19PM (#16270813)
Systemic risk reduction is one effect of reducing interdependence. What are the others? On balance, are they net-negative or net-positive?
Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by ergothus on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:24PM (#16269173)
I can't say if it's better or not, but we do know that human organizations function poorly at scale. The larger the group, the more difficult it is to communicate, the easier it is to feel powerless, the more the problems of a large chunk of the group are remote and abstract (and thus ignored/missed/downplayed/deprioritized)

I suspect that you also have more corruption and/or abuse of power because (a) the previous entries all empower sociopathic individuals, (b) you have a larger pool from which to find such sociopaths, and (c) you have more positions of power for said sociopaths to fill.

You have all of these problems in small groups, but many of our policing/accountability systems don't function well in very large groups.

Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by kbenson on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @05:14PM (#16269598)
I'm not sure any of your claims are backed up by data. Is our larger society more corrupt? Is it more difficult to communicate?

I could just as easily argue that smaller, more insular groups promote distrust of outsiders and lack of empathy, which might lead to more wars. I have no idea if that's true, but it sounds plausible to me.

In the end, actually examining data is what's needed. Until there are facts to assess, we're just spouting wild conjecture.

Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by ergothus on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @05:53PM (#16269857)
> I'm not sure any of your claims are backed up by data.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number has a decent collection of the research I know of. There is a little hand-waving involved when it comes to "why", but it's notable that multiple researchers over decades disagree about the number, not the base concept. Likewise, studies related to the base concept of the non-technical Brooks Law support the non-linear impact on communication as a group grows (off hand I can't find a study on that, but I know I've read of multiple).

Edit: Also https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/how-risky-is-it-really/... points out some research about the distance/abstractness I mentioned.

Anecdotally, plenty of governing and/or economic systems (e.g. communism) have historical success in small groups and no examples of success in large groups, but that's a completely different kind of evidence.

The corruption/abuse item is not part of the research, which is why I separated that as "I suspect" Given the above, and what we know about leaders (executives, politicians) and how sociopathic tendencies are an asset to personal success I find it very plausible but I have no actual evidence, thus "I suspect".

> I could just as easily argue that smaller, more insular groups promote distrust of outsiders and lack of empathy

You could, and I'd actually be interested to see any research on the topic because I've not thought about that one but it does match our general experiences about exposure and tolerance to social differences. That's orthogonal to my point though, as I was only addressing internal workings, not interactions between groups.

Re:Amazon, Berkshire, JPMorgan to Create Healthcare Company by kbenson on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @06:32PM (#16270098)
> The corruption/abuse item is not part of the research, which is why I separated that as "I suspect"

My main point was that the theory was labeled as something you suspect, but the evidence you listed to back up that theory sounded like it was being presented as fact. You've provided resources to back up the claim, at least to some degree (as you note), which is what I was looking for, so thanks. :)

> You could, and I'd actually be interested to see any research on the topic because I've not thought about that one but it does match our general experiences about exposure and tolerance to social differences.

I don't have any, but I also would be interested to see it. I was using it as an example of something that sounded true and that I suspected was true that I had no real evidence of, and thus should be hesitant to assert as true. Unfortunately, by its nature that makes it interesting to a certain type of person, so it ends up teasing us. :/