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Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by machinecontrol on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @01:21PM (#16267550)
If this is a grand jury subpoena, things could get ugly fast in the crypto space. Despite all talk of decentralization, the major exchanges pose a systemic risk.
Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by politician on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @01:24PM (#16267582)
The achilles' heel with these systems is their integration points with fiat. Always has been.
Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by 21 on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:32PM (#16268210)
If you don't integrate with fiat, all you have is "mobile game gems" or "WoW gold".

Fiat is and always will be tightly monitored and controlled. If cryptos want to replace fiat, they will have to do the same.

Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by Crespyl on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @03:55PM (#16268942)
That's assuming you can't find anyone to trade goods and services for crypto directly.
Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by simias on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:12PM (#16269075)
Which just pushes the problem a little further away since eventually somebody will have to pay taxes in fiat so if your cryptocurrency is not convertible it's going to be a problem.
Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by rocqua on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @06:49PM (#16270188)
Originally, 'fiat' had the same link to gold as crypto has to fiat. True, for taxes fiat is needed, but it is possible to have a thriving economy without needing access to fiat.

The moment people can start to pay rent and groceries in crypto, it makes sense to accept crypto even if you can't turn it into fiat. As long as taxes are paid in fiat, you need some of it, but that wouldn't make crypto useless.

Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by realusername on Wednesday January 31, 2018 @01:49AM (#16272039)
You would also need crypto value to be much more stable for that to happen but I also agree with the idea.
Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by M2Ys4U on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:11PM (#16269060)
At which point _they_ will have to interface with the world of fiat, if for nothing else than to pay tax.
Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by brokensegue on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:00PM (#16267918)
For a different perspective, I would say their problem is integration with the "real world" with constrains that bitcoin wasn't designed for.
Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by jandrese on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:07PM (#16267982)
What use is a currency (or commodity!) that you can't convert into a good or service? It seems like a fundamental problem if the theoretical advantages of a currency are lost the instant you try to use it to buy something.

Otherwise we're just wasting gigawatts of electricity to print Monopoly money.

Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by krapp on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:56PM (#16268428)
The assumption has always been that cryptocurrency driven markets would emerge completely decoupled from states and their systems of financial regulation, and so conversion would be neither necessary, nor desired. Everything you could possibly want to buy, legal or illegal, would be payable through the crypto market. Cryptocurrencies were supposed to undermine fiat, or at least render it unnecessary, barring taxes, not cooperate with it.
Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by jandrese on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @03:22PM (#16268661)
It took a serious tin hat warrior to actually believe that line. "If everybody in the world instantly switches over to my new currency overnight everything will be awesome!" That's so far divorced from reality only pure mathematicians could love it.

Not to mention it would never work, the blockchain has way too much overhead (many many orders of magnitude) to support an entire world's worth of exchanges every day. There literally isn't enough electricity in the world. People would have to do all of their transfers on third party exchanges that undermine all of the crypto guarantees of the currency in the first place. They're no better than putting your fiat currency in a bank run by criminals that have no respect for laws. And I'm not talking euphemistically about regular bankers here, I'm talking about full up scam artists. I mean why not, it's not like the law is going to get you. There are no pesky regulations to get in the way. No annoying insurance adjusters breathing down your neck. You have total freedom to scam everybody all day long.

Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by 0wing on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:08PM (#16269036)
Also consider nearly all of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are "premined" in the sense that only a few early adopters control more then half the supply due to how the work readjustment algorithms are skewed to generate all the coins very easy for a few users but later new users don't have equal access to produce coins as easily or cheaply as those other users.
Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by gruez on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:38PM (#16269297)
Also consider nearly all corporations are "premined" in the sense that only a few early founders/early investors control more then half the shares and new investors don't have equal access to buy shares as easyly (sic) or cheaply as those other investors.
Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by andymal on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @06:35PM (#16270120)
Curious what you mean by "There literally isn't enough electricity in the world."?

BTC uses the same amount of energy to produce an empty block as it uses to produce a full block.

Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by jandrese on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @09:58PM (#16270971)
It has diminishing returns on the amount of work you get out of each hash, so if you wanted to support millions or billions of transactions per second (world scale) it would become impossible to sustain.
Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by politician on Wednesday January 31, 2018 @12:07PM (#16275381)
There's also the problem that the block size is capped which is maybe what you were referring to?
Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by PeterisP on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:25PM (#16269186)
A majority of "everything you could possibly want to buy" includes physical goods and physical services.

Markets cannot be completely decoupled from states as long as they trade in real goods and services - as long as you're not trading solely in virtual goods, the other part of the transaction still requires you to interact with the real world under the jurisdiction of some state, and thus the whole transaction, including the cryptocurrency (and the source of that cryptocurrency) is subject to those rules.

If you sell some virtual services for cryptocurrency and later want to buy a car with the proceeds, then not only the car purchase, but also your sale of these virtual services must have been done "cooperating" with all the rules of fiat - states can and will forbid using the proceeds made in markets completely decoupled from their systems of financial regulation; they will use their hold over the physical markets to try and regulate the virtual markets also as much as possible. In the long run, if cryptocurrencies won't cooperate, then they'll be ostracized - there's nothing stopping the gov't from passing a law that simply prohibits any legitimate merchant to accept bitcoin, greatly limiting the range of things that you can actually buy.

Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by deadmetheny on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:46PM (#16268331)
>Otherwise we're just wasting gigawatts of electricity to print Monopoly money.

The sooner people realize this is exactly what is happening, the better.

Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by alistproducer2 on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:13PM (#16269087)
I agree. I have a comment somewhere in my history saying the same thing. No matter how decentralized we like to imagine crypto to be, the fiat on and off ramps are highly centralized and can bring the whole thing crashing down in a hurry.
Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by SirensOfTitan on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @01:26PM (#16267606)
How is this related? USDT is effectively a centralized currency. Bitfinex has always been shady. Are you saying that exchanges that accept USDT will get hit hard by this?
Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by mschuster91 on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @01:30PM (#16267644)
> Are you saying that exchanges that accept USDT will get hit hard by this?

Not necessarily but the market shakes from a major exchange going bust can definitely hit other exchanges as well (a classic bank run), and even if there won't be a bank run other exchanges, especially any with ANY ties to ANY US institution or customer (which basically every exchange has!), will be expecting their own "audits"...

Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @01:29PM (#16267628)
> Are you saying that exchanges that accept USDT will get hit hard by this?

If they sold a single USDT to an American, possibly. At the very least, they may be liable for American USDT investors’ losses plus fines.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. This is not legal nor securities-related advice. Do not buy or sell anything based on my Internet comments.

Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by gressquel on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @01:29PM (#16267633)
yes, when people try to cash out their USDT to real USD the exchanges are going to collapse like house of cards because appearently the fake USDT is not 1:1 backed to real USD.

Note: only exchanges supporting USDT (tehter) is going to get hit hard, other exchanges such as BitStamp will probably see a downtrend but not going to crash

Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by machinecontrol on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @01:29PM (#16267631)
If USDT goes to zero, every exchange that trades it becomes immediately insolvent.
Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by gojomo on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @01:38PM (#16267721)
Only an exchange that is somehow on-the-hook to redeem USDT for actual USD at parity would have problems.

An exchange could offer USDT trading but still have negligible exposure to its value itself. And then if USDT goes to zero – radically breaking the intended parity-with-USD – direct losses should be confined to USDT holders, not exchanges.

Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by dragonwriter on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:37PM (#16268264)
> If USDT goes to zero, every exchange that trades it becomes immediately insolvent.

Nope. They'd only be insolvent if they had a legal binding commitment to redeem USDT 1:1 in dollars, and only if they didn't have sufficient other USD reserves to do so.

Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by ThrustVectoring on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:46PM (#16268329)
The exchanges get sued by the Tether bagholders, and everyone else gets spooked and attempts to exit. So not insolvent, but no active business activities and a bunch of lawsuits incoming, and might as well be insolvent.
Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by dragonwriter on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:59PM (#16268453)
> The exchanges get sued by the Tether bagholders

On what basis? Other than ones that commingle USD and USDT and/or are organizationally associated with Tether (which, I think, is mostly Bitfinex and Bitfinex), I'm not seeing where there is much basis for holding the exchange liable for the collapse in value of a traded asset.

Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by PeterisP on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:34PM (#16269259)
The nuances are tricky, it depends on how USDT is eventually treated by courts.

But, for example, if it happens to get legally treated as an unregistered security, then the exchange would be fully liable for the losses of their customers, since it was not allowed to sell unregistered securities to general public/unaccredited investors. And this argument by itself seems sufficient to press a serious prolonged case, even if the courts later decide that no, this interpretation isn't the right one.

In general, being an intermediary in shady products may easily mean that you're (also) liable. "Normal" stock exchanges and stock brokers are the exception, they have specially listed immunity exceptions that apply if and only if they fulfil a bunch of conditions; otherwise people may well sue you to cover their losses just because it seems that it's easier to enforce judgments on you than a Hong Kong company.

Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by ThrustVectoring on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:36PM (#16269275)
Fraud, for accepting "USD" deposits and hiding the fact that they silently convert your balance to USDT.

And they don't have to win the lawsuit, they just need to not get it dismissed outright and scare others into leaving the exchange.

Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by dragonwriter on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:40PM (#16269304)
> Fraud, for accepting "USD" deposits and hiding the fact that they silently convert your balance to USDT.

Other than Bitfinex (with he comingling issue mentioned upthread), I understood the main use case for USDT on exchanges is to avoid even touching USD transactions in either direction; for exchanges doing this, they wouldn't be at risk here.

> And they don't have to win the lawsuit, they just need to not get it dismissed outright

Right, but I'm not seeing where you get a colorable cause of action that avoids that for a typical USDT-supporting exchange from a USDT value collapse.

Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by moduspol on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:50PM (#16268368)
Exchanges don't actually hold the things they're trading. They're just matchmakers who take a percentage when trades occur.

Anything creating high volume benefits exchanges, even if that volume is everyone trying to sell their tethers for other crypto.

Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by mitchellberry on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @03:03PM (#16268495)
>Exchanges don't actually hold the things they're trading.

Bitfinex has a few billion in publicly known cold wallets.

Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by moduspol on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @03:13PM (#16268576)
Well Bitfinex is a special case relating to Tether, but I'm sure all exchanges hold some amount of money in some way to support operations. It's just misunderstanding how exchanges work to think a price drop in a thing being traded puts exchanges at risk.

It would only do so if the exchange has a strange unrelated agreement (like to trade 1 USDT for 1 USD), or were holding the money they're using to run their operation in that asset. Except for maybe Bitfinex (because of the special case), no exchanges are doing that with USDT.

Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by mtgx on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @01:59PM (#16267907)
There are a bunch of decentralized cryptocurrency exchange projects coming. My favorite so far are https://loopring.org and https://0xproject.com, but there are like a dozen out there.

This is just the beginning. As centralized exchanges start having all sorts of problems (CoinCheck, Bitfinex, maybe Bittrex and Poloniex soon), more people will start looking into decentralized exchanges and thus increase their liquidity. Even Binance, one of the biggest centralized exchanges right now, said that it wants to become a decentralized exchange.

All of this probably won't happen within the next year, but it will happen. It's just a matter of all the pieces falling into place for people to switch. Probably the #1 thing that could help their adoption is being able to integrate new cryptocurrencies faster than any centralized exchange can, especially if this integration is "permissionless", by simply allowing the cryptocurrency developers to support its protocol and then have the cryptcurrency automatically appear on the exchange.

Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by tobltobs on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:33PM (#16268223)
> especially if this integration is "permissionless", by simply allowing the cryptocurrency developers to support its protocol and then have the cryptcurrency automatically appear on the exchange.

A shortage of shitcoins isn't the biggest problem currently for the cryptospace.

Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by mtgx on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @04:03PM (#16268999)
Whether you like it or not, people want to get their "shitcoins" early. It's also what I believe may be the #1 reason why crypto-exchanges aren't way more centralized right now, and why Coinbase doesn't own 80% of the market, as Mt.Gox used to.

No single exchange can keep up with every new cryptocurrency, so people start creating accounts with all the exchanges, and then start preferring the new ones if they also bring overall site improvements over the incumbents, and eventually dump the incumbents. This is healthy for the cryptocurrency market. If this wouldn't have happened, things could have been a lot worse with centralized exchanges.

I don't know what the "final form" of this ecosystem will be, but I hope it will be something like the internet. Decentralized exchanges essentially being "protocols" like TCP, which link all the cryptocurrencies (servers) and users (clients) with each other, and everyone can "exchange" (connect) one cryptocurrency to another.

But unlike the internet, I hope there will be a much bigger emphasis on P2P connections/transactions, and that we won't sacrifice that just to get a little more performance or more convenience. There will be such more centralized cryptocurrencies, too, just like today's internet continues to have huge walled gardens like Facebook, but hopefully it won't be the majority of them.

Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by product50 on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @01:31PM (#16267653)
Well, Bitfinex and Tether is how legacy exchanges operate. Bitfinex is completely centralized and issues Tether (a stable coin) as a feature to enable traders to do "cash out" from the volatility of crypto when they feel like.

Going forward though there will be dexes and decentralized stable coins (such as Basecoin). Those would be extremely difficult to track down and have strong incentive structures to maintain their value.

Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by pwaai on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @02:04PM (#16267962)
any specific reason why that would accelerate the downfall? how long until we find out about the outcome after the subpoena sent out last week?
Re:U.S. Regulators to Subpoena Crypto Exchange Bitfinex, Tether by gressquel on Tuesday January 30, 2018 @01:24PM (#16267589)
market already starting to dip. Down another 6% right after this news go out