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Re:Senator asks FBI director to name the cryptographers who ... by MrLeap on Thursday January 25, 2018 @01:28PM (#16233199)
This line of reasoning is disturbing to me. I don't want to live in a world where there's effectively a traffic camera pointed at the contents of my phone. Bandying apologetics regarding how limited it's used and how badly it's needed won't change my mind.

Would you consent to having a microphone embedded in your driver's license that the FBI could "only turn on if they really needed it"?

When the people with power get to define the meaning of the constraints on their power, their power is without constraints. It disgusts me when companies and individuals are press ganged into being enforcement arms of the government. In my opinion, it takes a certain blindness to history or a level of sociopathy to be fine with this.

Re:Senator asks FBI director to name the cryptographers who ... by fmihaila on Thursday January 25, 2018 @01:50PM (#16233388)
> I don't want to live in a world where there's effectively a traffic camera pointed at the contents of my phone. [...] Would you consent to having a microphone embedded in your driver's license that the FBI could "only turn on if they really needed it"?

Not the GP, but I didn't read anything in dsacco's post that implies any of these. I understood it as saying that it's possible to understand the technology, and even have a strong pro-encryption and pro-privacy stance, without believing that FBI as an institution is fundamentally corrupt or motivated by malice. There is an inherent tension between the FBI's mission, citizen's rights, and the nature of encryption, and it looks like that tension might never be fully resolved.

> When the people with power get to define the meaning of the constraints on their power, their power is without constraints.

I fully agree, and I'm as convinced as you are of people's inability to restrain themselves once they have unchecked power. "Just trust us" always ends in disaster.

> It disgusts me when companies and individuals are press ganged into being enforcement arms of the government. In my opinion, it takes a certain blindness to history or a level of sociopathy to be fine with this.

This is the part I have trouble with; as I see it, there are more than two ways to characterize one's position on this issue than simply 'for or against', 'principled vs. sellout', or 'clear-eyed vs. blind'.

Re:Senator asks FBI director to name the cryptographers who ... by MrLeap on Thursday January 25, 2018 @02:13PM (#16233610)
> Not the GP, but I didn't read anything in dsacco's post that implies any of these. I understood it as saying that it's possible to understand the technology, and even have a strong pro-encryption and pro-privacy stance, without believing that FBI as an institution is fundamentally corrupt or motivated by malice. There is an inherent tension between the FBI's mission, citizen's rights, and the nature of encryption, and it looks like that tension might never be fully resolved.

My opposition to the FBI's stance on this is independent of whether or not the FBI is corrupt or motivated by malice. The FBI, being made up of mortals, is an ever changing organization. Giving a philosopher king autocratic powers is giving that power to the tyrant that comes later. The tension between those with power and those surrendering power is older than the FBI. I agree it will never be resolved.

> This is the part I have trouble with; as I see it, there are more than two ways to characterize one's position on this issue than simply 'for or against', 'principled vs. sellout', or 'clear-eyed vs. blind'.

It's a bit incendiary, I'll give you that. I feel pretty strongly about this and let some of that leak out.

Re:Senator asks FBI director to name the cryptographers who ... by white-flame on Thursday January 25, 2018 @03:08PM (#16234122)
> Giving a philosopher king autocratic powers is giving that power to the tyrant that comes later.

Plus, granting that power actively attracts tyrants and other predators to pursue attaining or usurping that position.

Re:Senator asks FBI director to name the cryptographers who ... by naasking on Thursday January 25, 2018 @06:52PM (#16235887)
That's an interesting position. I wonder if the opposite is also true: that the more principled and morally righteous the organization, the less it attracts such people and the more it attracts more morally upstanding and intelligent people who like the challenge.
Re:Senator asks FBI director to name the cryptographers who ... by MrLeap on Thursday January 25, 2018 @08:34PM (#16236375)
Your hypothetical may be moving on the wrong axis. I think a more appropriate counter example is whether or not positions that no one surrenders any power to attract tyrants. Does a tyrant wish to be a kindergarden teacher?
Re:Senator asks FBI director to name the cryptographers who ... by naasking on Friday January 26, 2018 @10:30AM (#16239867)
Not looking for a counterexample, just wondering if the human psychology involved has a dual that can be exploited to ensure high quality, incorruptible investigative agencies.
Re:Senator asks FBI director to name the cryptographers who ... by dsacco on Thursday January 25, 2018 @02:02PM (#16233504)
> I understood it as saying that it's possible to understand the technology, and even have a strong pro-encryption and pro-privacy stance, without believing that FBI as an institution is fundamentally corrupt or motivated by malice. There is an inherent tension between the FBI's mission, citizen's rights, and the nature of encryption, and it looks like that tension might never be fully resolved.

Yes, thank you. This explains my thinking more succinctly and clearly than I did :)

Re:Senator asks FBI director to name the cryptographers who ... by benchaney on Thursday January 25, 2018 @03:14PM (#16234178)
If that is actually your position, then you aren't a counterpoint to my original post.
Re:Senator asks FBI director to name the cryptographers who ... by dsjoerg on Thursday January 25, 2018 @01:50PM (#16233396)
You're misunderstanding the comment you're replying to. It concludes that "there must be a system of checks and balances". Are you saying that there shouldn't be?
Re:Senator asks FBI director to name the cryptographers who ... by MrLeap on Thursday January 25, 2018 @02:04PM (#16233530)
It looks like the parent was edited since I started typing my response, but I still think my response is appropriate for this new version.

There is no series of checks and balances you can wrap around breaking encryption that doesn't hurt a free society. How am I misunderstanding?