News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by tempestn on Friday January 19, 2018 @03:26AM (#16184845)
This was the most exciting part for me:

It was trialled on 1,005 patients with cancers in the ovary, liver, stomach, pancreas, oesophagus, colon, lung or breast that had not yet spread to other tissues.

Overall, the test found 70% of the cancers.

I expected it to be blood cancers only, but this list covers many of the most common forms of cancer. Could be a huge development.

Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by AstralStorm on Friday January 19, 2018 @03:27AM (#16184852)
They glossed over the false positive rate...
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by phaemon on Friday January 19, 2018 @04:04AM (#16184975)
They did not gloss over it. It's right there in the abstract: http://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2018/01/17/scien...

Please realise that, just because a detail is omitted in a news report, it does not mean that the team who did the research didn't think of it, or tried to hide it. This is just the usual shoddy reporting by the BBC.

Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by huhtenberg on Friday January 19, 2018 @06:07AM (#16185383)
Looks paywalled.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by haraball on Friday January 19, 2018 @06:15AM (#16185409)
> The specificity of CancerSEEK was > 99%: only 7 of 812 healthy controls scored positive.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by ZeroGravitas on Friday January 19, 2018 @07:56AM (#16185856)
Worth noting that because of anonymity, they couldn't go back and check if those 7 people actually had cancer and just didn't know it.

Recently the woman who could smell Parkinson's Disease got one test wrong but when they rechecked they found that she was right, it was just undiagnosed in that person.

Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by vm on Friday January 19, 2018 @01:27PM (#16188472)
Smelling Parkinson's is fascinating -- thanks for dropping that nugget.

Read a little more about it --> Researchers identified 10 molecules that Parkinson's patients emit and could be used for early detection. Pretty cool. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/meet-woman-ca...

Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by jonlucc on Friday January 19, 2018 @08:32AM (#16186033)
> because of anonymity, they couldn't go back

Is this so? I thought the original researchers would be able to follow-up if they had accounted for it in their consent forms. In other words, they surely have identifying patient information, and even though an outside team couldn't screen the same cohort, that original team could find those 7 patients and ask again in 2 years.

Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by sghi on Friday January 19, 2018 @09:40AM (#16186497)
I'm pretty sure they would be able to - I worked with cancer trial data (just a student job, doing data entry) but all patients were completely anonymised to anyone working with the data but readily identifiable by a specific unique ID number, so higher-level trial managers and doctors could find patient information if needed.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by sambe on Friday January 19, 2018 @11:07AM (#16187224)
It is common for the data to be anonymised. Especially if there is a third party involved (e.g. a lab producing sequencing data attached to sub-sets of clinical information, according to whatever contract or legal environment they are in).
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by jonlucc on Friday January 19, 2018 @12:18PM (#16187885)
But surely, as the other poster mentions, they'd be tracking patients by some unique ID and someone has the key. Otherwise, how do you correlate blood results with any other patient data?
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by sambe on Friday January 19, 2018 @04:10PM (#16189882)
I mean, they could go back to the provider of the clinical information with a unique ID and request follow-up. But people are still a) busy (clinical data may come from a hospital that has little interest in research; researchers want to publish and move on); b) extremely scared of making mistakes (to the point of delusion: wanting data/results to never change, even if its an improvement - because that implies there was something wrong in the past). Getting follow-up clinical data may also be out of scope of existing agreements.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by BurningFrog on Friday January 19, 2018 @11:34AM (#16187494)
It shouldn't be hard to make a statistical estimate of how many people have an undiscovered cancer of this kind?
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by tptacek on Friday January 19, 2018 @11:05AM (#16187210)
How does that compare to the base rate of these cancers in the population? The false positive rate in a control group can be very low, but still overwhelming when applied to the general population.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by wazoox on Friday January 19, 2018 @10:32AM (#16186932)
That's a lot of false positives. If 4% of people actually have one of these cancers at any point in time (a number that seems quite high) that means that 20% of positive results would be false in the general population.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by olegkikin on Friday January 19, 2018 @04:27PM (#16190028)
It's still extremely useful, even with those false positive rates. You will scare a few people, but they will just retest and maybe will improve their lifestyle.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by jopsen on Friday January 19, 2018 @01:28PM (#16188487)
Yeah, stats are hard :)
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by dx034 on Friday January 19, 2018 @07:53AM (#16185835)
If the blood test becomes widespread you could end up with more false positives than true positives. So probably not useful as a routine test with this error rate.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by letlambda on Friday January 19, 2018 @09:54AM (#16186601)
That specificity implies one of these cancers apriori occurs in 5% of the tested population.

Is that about right taking into account pre-screening? We can identify a population that has a 5% chance of having one of these cancers?

Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by Retric on Friday January 19, 2018 @12:06PM (#16187771)
If these represent 70% of cancers overall and ~40% of the US population will get a cancer diagnosis at some point then it seems likely you can find many populations with more than a 5% chance of having cancer.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by AnimalMuppet on Friday January 19, 2018 @03:56PM (#16189737)
OK, but if I have a 40% chance of getting a cancer diagnosis at some point in my life, and they run the test as part of my physical every year, then presumably my chance of having cancer at the time they run the test is much less than 5%.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by Retric on Friday January 19, 2018 @05:16PM (#16190372)
That just means you should not give someone the test every year.

At 70 people have a much higher risk of cancer than 7. Long term smokers have higher risks than non smokers. Combine multiple risk factors and find groups with 5+% risk of these kinds of cancers is not that difficult.

Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by huhtenberg on Friday January 19, 2018 @11:54AM (#16187663)
Ah, missed that, thanks. I assumed it was in the paper itself.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by dekhn on Friday January 19, 2018 @07:37AM (#16185737)
a 1% false positive rate. ouch.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by viraptor on Friday January 19, 2018 @06:33AM (#16185470)
That's what scihub was made for. Doc id 10.1126/science.aar3247
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by Bron101 on Friday January 19, 2018 @03:49AM (#16184930)
From other sources (https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/891491) I was able to find they had a specificity of >99%, with a sensitivity averaging 70% but was as low as 20% on certain cancers (esophageal cancer).

With such an excellent specificity this sounds promising as a cheap screening tool, although the sensitivity is too low in some cancer types to be used as a means to rule out cancer.

Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by tansey on Friday January 19, 2018 @06:31AM (#16185459)
The problem with the idea of cheap screening tools is Bayes' theorem. If doctors go ordering this for most people since it's just a blood test, and if only 1% of people ever really have cancer when tested then the 1% false positive rate means there's only a 50/50 chance you have cancer given the test is positive.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by rplnt on Friday January 19, 2018 @06:47AM (#16185520)
So that's one "wasted" advanced screening for one where cancer is found. That seems great to me.

Also, I assume it would be mostly done on higher risk patients (certain work conditions, certain age, etc..). Only once in couple of years on younger population for example. Or if it's really cheap everyone could get it and then there could be more focused blood screening done next so you don't have to get full body cat scans.

Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by vidarh on Friday January 19, 2018 @08:30AM (#16186014)
It's not that simple. If the worst effect was some unnecessary secondary screening, it would be a no-brainer.

But first of all you need to account for the negative effects of a false positive, and they are much worse than that. They include anything from stress and psychological effects, cost and risks of all the additional screening, to the much worse issue that you also need to account for the fact that for some cancers in some instances it will be hard enough to determine if the growth is malignant in the sense that some proportion of cancerous growth will never pose a threat to the patient, but once diagnosed there tends to be a strong pressure to treat. As a result too frequent screening will save some, but will also result in a large amount of unnecessary chemo, radiation therapy and/or surgeries - all of which come with risks in addition to the pain and discomfort.

Then you need to account for frequency of testing. A 1% false positive rate per test looks distinctly worse if the test is repeated every year for a 10-20 year timespan, for example.

Then you'll also want to account for how much it improves outcomes. If the cancers it detects are ones that would generally be detected in time anyway, and/or have low mortality, and where treatment outcomes are good, the incremental improvement would not necessarily be big enough to justify the negatives.

For breast cancer, for example, there has in recent years been a push to reduce large scale routine mammogram screening because it's not clear if it does more good than harm for many groups of patients (in large part because it leads to overtreatment). This article goes into some of the issues related to that in some detail (and presents both proponents and detractors of large scale screening):

http://www.healthbeatblog.com/2009/04/mammography-screening-...

Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by the_af on Friday January 19, 2018 @01:46PM (#16188617)
Wasn't there a similar argument (linked to here on HN a few years ago) against early screenings for prostate cancer using highly sensitive techniques?

If I remember correctly, the argument went like this: early screening may detect some forms of prostate cancer which, given the estimated natural lifespan of the patient, would have failed to kill/discomfort him before he died of other causes. But once it's been detected, the recommendation will be to treat the cancer; and treatment has a chance to cause discomfort (such as impotence) right now. So in effect, early detection of some forms of prostate cancer may negatively impact the quality of life of patients who would have otherwise lived a normal life without noticing the cancer.

I might be remembering some details incorrectly.

Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by cratermoon on Friday January 19, 2018 @02:08PM (#16188805)
https://academic.oup.com/jnci/article/101/19/1325/1073822

"Given the considerable time that has passed since PSA screening began, most of this excess incidence must represent overdiagnosis."

Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by rplnt on Friday January 19, 2018 @09:04AM (#16186224)
I'm not sure the pressure to treat is a real issue. Some types of cancers (lymphoma for example) are only monitored in early stages. So if this would result in increased early detection, it might be a standard procedure to just keep an eye on the cancer, even for wider ranges. It's better than waiting for symptoms to appear (and the tendency for people to ignore the symptoms for a year before seeing a doctor).
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by vidarh on Friday January 19, 2018 @10:05AM (#16186690)
See the link - it includes details about studies done on breast cancer for example where overtreatment is a real issue. This is not a hypothetical concern, but a concern that's significant enough that large scale screening programs have scaled back in some countries in response.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by tptacek on Friday January 19, 2018 @11:08AM (#16187232)
It was a real issue for relatives of mine, who had to argue down doctors ordering invasive procedures for things that over the long term turned out to be non-issues.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by taneq on Friday January 19, 2018 @09:04AM (#16186228)
But it means if you test negative you can just stop worrying about it completely.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by cfmcdonald on Friday January 19, 2018 @10:40AM (#16187000)
No it doesn't, since of the people known to have cancer who were tested, only 70% tested positive.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by tischler on Friday January 19, 2018 @04:13AM (#16184995)
As a reminder:

true positive rate (TPR, a.k.a. hit rate, recall, specificity)

TPR = TP / P = TP / (TP + FN)

specificity (SPC) or true negative rate

SPC = TN / N = TN / (TN + FP)

Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by kmmlng on Friday January 19, 2018 @04:36AM (#16185084)
You labelled both TPR and TNR as "specificity". True positive rate should be sensitivity.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by tischler on Friday January 19, 2018 @08:06AM (#16185905)
Oops, thanks. I've always had struggle remembering these terms because they are so confusing. "Specific" means that something only relates to one particular element X in a set of more than one thing. Given that meaning, one would expect specificity to mean "how good is the test at correctly reporting the thing it is designed to report X rather than confusing a different thing (an element from the complement of X) for X", but that is sensitivity. Instead, specificity means that with respect to the complement: "how good is the test at correctly reporting all the other elements in the set ¬X as negative rather than confusing an element from ¬X for X".

"Sensitive" has a clearer intuition: For example when you want to detect a weak signal, then if your antenna is more sensitive, you can better pick up the signal, thus you are better at telling whether the signal is really there (you have a better true positive rate).

I cannot think of a better name for TNR, though, other than simply sticking with TNR and TPR.

Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by kmmlng on Friday January 19, 2018 @08:54AM (#16186171)
Your sensitivity intuition is a fantastic way to remember it. I had to look it up myself, but hopefully this will finally make it stick :)
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by black_puppydog on Friday January 19, 2018 @03:30AM (#16184861)
Well, in a study that only tests on cancer patients, there are no negative examples to wrongly be classified as positive. That's for the second study (mentioned in the article) to show.

Still, this would be great, probably combined with (nearly) equally simple follow-up tests.

Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by pgt on Friday January 19, 2018 @03:39AM (#16184895)
False positive rate seems pretty key, or the test could be testing for brunettes where 70% of the population is brunette.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by jlebrech on Friday January 19, 2018 @05:39AM (#16185301)
they can falsely diagnose the wrong type of cancer?
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by beberlei on Friday January 19, 2018 @05:45AM (#16185320)
This test is probably not being used for "what kind of cancer" but as a cheap and easy way for yearly/bi-yearly tests of the general population as part of prevention.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by dx034 on Friday January 19, 2018 @07:54AM (#16185843)
With a 1% false positive rate that won't work I guess. False positive rate needs to be much smaller.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by justinpombrio on Friday January 19, 2018 @03:02PM (#16189278)
I don't think they do. If someone tests positive, I imagine the next step would be to do more thorough (and expensive, and time-consuming) tests and find out for sure.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by HyperMassive on Friday January 19, 2018 @04:02AM (#16184968)
On national news they mentioned 1% came back positive for people who were believed to be entirely healthy. Unfortunately it was anonymous so they could not get back in touch with the false positive patients. The spokesperson made it very clear its early days and they are looking to refine it further; they anticipate it to be a cheap and accessible 'first-call' test in regular cancer screening, not a definitive diagnosis.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by carlmr on Friday January 19, 2018 @05:19AM (#16185235)
According to https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-basics/cancer-prevalenc... about 15 million Americans have cancer. That is about 5% of the population. Given those numbers and assuming you have a positive result for a random person, that means according to Bayes:

C being cancer, H healthy, P positive test P(C|P) = [P(P|C) * P(C)] / [P(P|C) * P(C) + P(P|H) * P(H)] = [ 0.7 * 0.05] / [ 0.7 * 0.05 + 0.01 * 0.95] = 0.035 / (0.035 + 0.0095) = 0.7865

That's pretty good. If you have a positive test result, in 4 out of 5 cases it actually is cancer. It gets a bit worse if you account for the fact that this test only works for a subset of the cancers. But this would be useful as a pre-screening.

Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by nonbel on Friday January 19, 2018 @07:10AM (#16185599)
Since this is a screening test, I don't think that 15 million number is correct for prevalence.

You are using % of population diagnosed with cancer. The correct value would be the % of population with undiagnosed cancer.

Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by carlmr on Friday January 19, 2018 @07:35AM (#16185727)
True. That is really difficult to obtain though. But assuming that most people are eventually diagnosed with cancer (even if just close to death), then a similar maybe a little lower population must have undiagnosed cancers.

In the end you'll need a properly conducted study with random undiagnosed people to get reliable numbers though.

Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by nonbel on Friday January 19, 2018 @08:19AM (#16185959)
It seems like pretty basic info to me. There should be some estimate out there somewhere, especially given the billions of dollars spent each year on studying cancer. A quick search didn't lead to anything promising though.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by lr4444lr on Friday January 19, 2018 @10:00AM (#16186656)
But isn't the main point that it motivates people to get tested further, and sooner, when outcomes can be better? It's a sky high false negative rate that would really take the wind out of the sails for me about this.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by cratermoon on Friday January 19, 2018 @02:10PM (#16188817)
Outcomes are not necessarily better overall for earlier detection, though. For some kinds of cancer, pancreatic, for example, yes. Others, likes prostate or thyroid, not so much.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by JohnJamesRambo on Friday January 19, 2018 @05:28AM (#16185268)
I would be fine with a pretty high false positive rate when you are getting such vital and useful information.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by vidarh on Friday January 19, 2018 @08:37AM (#16186072)
It's worth noting that there is some disagreement in recent years whether large scale screening for breast cancer does more harm than good (see lengthy comment I made elsewhere), exactly because this information very often is not so vital and useful (many growths are not lethal, or would be detected soon enough anyway that it doesn't change outcomes), yet can be actively harmful (detection often leads to unnecessary treatments as it may be hard to discern lethal cancers from growths that will never pose a threat, and detection also causes stress and other issues).

You also need to keep in mind that that it is very possible the false positive rate will be per test, in which case with regular screening 1% quickly turns to 10%...

Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by cratermoon on Friday January 19, 2018 @02:12PM (#16188838)
Dr. H. Gilbert Welch has made a career out of studying whether or not early detection is useful and necessary. http://tdi.dartmouth.edu/about/our-people/directory/h-gilber...

Cancer treatment is highly lucrative, though.

Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by tialaramex on Friday January 19, 2018 @06:19AM (#16185422)
What exactly are you going to do with this "vital and useful information" keeping in mind that it might also be wrong?
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by rocqua on Friday January 19, 2018 @06:24AM (#16185435)
Get CAT scans.

It should be noted that at the moment, the researchers are still working on determining which of the 8 cancers is present in the case of a positive result.

Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by vidarh on Friday January 19, 2018 @08:38AM (#16186080)
CAT scans are insufficient to determine if a growth is malignant in many cases. Which would lead you down the road to biopsies, which are also insufficient in many cases. Which would lead to unnecessary radiotherapy, chemo or operations in at least some cases.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by rocqua on Friday January 19, 2018 @03:41PM (#16189593)
If there is no way to determine whether a growth is malignant, we are fucked any way. Certainly, this is not the point of a screening test.

Screening tests are about cheaply directing further testing.

Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by vidarh on Saturday January 20, 2018 @03:41AM (#16192636)
It is often possible, but not always. The problem is that for cancer even a lot of that testing is either inconclusive and/or harmful in itself. So for every false positive, and even positive tests where the tumor will never harm the patient, there is a chance of active harm being done. Including causing death.

Early screening will occasionally save some. The question is whether it will save enough to make up for that harm if we increase the frequency of testing.

Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by cfmcdonald on Friday January 19, 2018 @02:55PM (#16189215)
CAT scans by themselves are also a pretty major radiation dose which slightly increases your risk for cancer.
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by wiz21c on Friday January 19, 2018 @08:51AM (#16186143)
Are they insufficient because of the way they work, or because their current resolution is too low ?
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by cratermoon on Friday January 19, 2018 @02:06PM (#16188790)
Re:Trial of a blood test that detects eight common forms of ... by rocqua on Friday January 19, 2018 @06:22AM (#16185430)
A false positive rate of 0.8 .