Kazakhstan Cheers New Alphabet, Except for All Those Apostrophes

Re:Kazakhstan Cheers New Alphabet, Except for All Those Apos... by Strom on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @07:44AM (#16157763)

That's a privilege of big countries like Germany, although Kazakhstan might qualify as well. I live in Estonia, a country of 1.3 million, and although there is a standard Estonian keyboard layout, there's basically zero products using it. [1] The local stores primarily sell laptops and desktop keyboards with the US ANSI layout. This is especially annoying, because ISO layouts like Swedish, UK, or even German would be a closer match to the Estonian standard. I also fear that this is impacting how many young people get into programming, because the Estonian layout binds three essential programming characters < > | to a key which physically doesn't exist on the US ANSI keyboard. I've seen it in practice how a friend tried to learn programming with his US ANSI keyboard, by copy-pasting those characters when needed. Not exactly an optimal situation. [2]

[1] Most keyboards had the Estonian layout in early 2000s, but they soon rapidly lost market share, mostly due to laptops if I had to guess why.

[2] Why not use US ANSI layout in the OS to match the keyboard? Because it doesn't contain characters required to type Estonian words.

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Re:Kazakhstan Cheers New Alphabet, Except for All Those Apos... by tom_mellior on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @08:17AM (#16157902)

> Why not use US ANSI layout in the OS to match the keyboard? Because it doesn't contain characters required to type Estonian words.

You can use dead keys and character combinations to get characters the keyboard doesn't support directly. This is what's done in France, where the standard AZERTY keyboard doesn't have keys for every French letter. For some letters it also only has a lowercase version, not uppercase. (Accents are optional on uppercase letters in French because... who knows why.) There is a dedicated key for the letter ù though, which only appears in a single word of the French language.

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Re:Kazakhstan Cheers New Alphabet, Except for All Those Apos... by louhike on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @09:13AM (#16158253)

> Accents are optional on uppercase letters

Unlike what some french believe, they are not supposed to be optional:

http://www.academie-francaise.fr/questions-de-langue#5_stron...

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Re:Kazakhstan Cheers New Alphabet, Except for All Those Apos... by harperlee on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @10:01AM (#16158617)

> Accents are optional on uppercase letters

In spanish it used to be the same. Old printing technologies were not so flexible as a screen, so for large imprints it made more sense to have all letters be the same size whilst not wasting space above the letters.

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Re:Kazakhstan Cheers New Alphabet, Except for All Those Apos... by wazoox on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @09:32AM (#16158403)

With both MacOS and Linux, you can access all accented uppercase letters simply by using the Caps-Lock key. For some unfathomable reason, Windows makes it much more difficult.

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Re:Kazakhstan Cheers New Alphabet, Except for All Those Apos... by cesarb on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @08:47AM (#16158083)

> I've seen it in practice how a friend tried to learn programming with his US ANSI keyboard, by copy-pasting those characters when needed.

Couldn't your friend use trigraphs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digraphs_and_trigraphs) in place of these characters?

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Re:Kazakhstan Cheers New Alphabet, Except for All Those Apos... by tlholaday on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @09:31AM (#16158389)

Note that C and C++ digraphs and trigraphs require < and > as part of the `token`.

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Re:Kazakhstan Cheers New Alphabet, Except for All Those Apos... by erfgh on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @08:49AM (#16158091)

Why can't you switch to US layout when coding and switch back to Estonian when writing Estonian text?

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Re:Kazakhstan Cheers New Alphabet, Except for All Those Apos... by TremendousJudge on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @09:45AM (#16158497)

I speak Spanish and have a laptop with a US keyboard. There's a similar issue with the <> key. I tried switching all the time at first, but it's a pain in the ass. Eventually I remapped right alt+Z to < and right alt+X to >. It took me an entire afternoon to figure out how to do it on Ubuntu, and I'm pretty sure it can't be done on Windows. So yeah, not exactly a solution for everyone

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Re:Kazakhstan Cheers New Alphabet, Except for All Those Apos... by eilyra on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @04:07PM (#16162594)

For Windows, there is the Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator[1], which would allow you to create such a mapping. I used it to map AltGr+s to ß on a Finnish/Swedish keyboard since I found myself writing a decent amount of German.

[1] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=223...

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Re:Kazakhstan Cheers New Alphabet, Except for All Those Apos... by perkee on Tuesday January 16, 2018 @10:34AM (#16158870)

I find it nuts that numbers are unmodified but delimiters like that are not when I mostly use my (US ANSI macOS layout) keyboard for front end coding. My fix was space cadet modifiers. Tapping left/right shift produces opening/closing parenthesis, command does curly braces, and option does angle brackets. Also caps lock is control but tapping it is double quote. You may find with this approach that you have way more keys at your fingertips than you thought.

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Re:Kazakhstan Cheers New Alphabet, Except for All Those Apos... by erfgh on Thursday January 18, 2018 @04:28AM (#16175806)

It's not a pain in the ass (at least in windows) because there is an OS setting that lets each window remember its keyboard layout. So I don't have to switch very often. The coding windows use US layout and my chat windows use GR (Greek) layout.

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