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Re:Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, O... by ghaff on Saturday January 13, 2018 @04:21PM (#16141482)
I'm always a bit shocked at the number of people here calling for someone's head in this sort of situation. I imagine the same people would downvote to oblivion anyone who came on here and wrote something like: "The only way we're going to get better software is by firing people who write bugs and make sure they never work in the industry again."
Re:Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, O... by ImSkeptical on Saturday January 13, 2018 @04:42PM (#16141582)
I'd say we just don't have enough information. It's possible someone deserves to be fired for this - e.g. if the alarm was intentional or negligent. It's also possible it was a misclick, confusing UI, etc, in which the person or people who should be fired are those who designed the system such that a simple mistake could set it off. There is a third possibility too - that some unpredictable alignment of factors means that ultimately nobody is too badly at fault, in which case the system should just be adapted and improved.

I generally agree with the sentiments of this thread - you shouldn't fire people for the kinds of mistakes that all humans frequently make. However, I also think that this was a severe and costly incident - a large number of people thought for a while they were in significant danger, and investigating who is responsible, and making corrections with regards to their employment, may be reasonable depending on the exact circumstances.

Re:Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, O... by cm2187 on Saturday January 13, 2018 @06:49PM (#16142047)
But there are certain jobs where the job is to get it right 100% of the time. This sort of mistake is extremely damaging in the unlikely scenarios that there would be an actual alert. A significant proportion of the population will ignore it next time because of this. You can’t take the “shits happen”, “break often and break fast”, “it doesn’t matter because we learn from our mistakes” attitude with everything. And in general with anything that has to do with nuclear energy & weapons. Or take a swat team to take another recent example of a really bad mistake.

https://www.xkcd.com/1428/

Re:Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, O... by marcosdumay on Saturday January 13, 2018 @10:34PM (#16142692)
> But there are certain jobs where the job is to get it right 100% of the time.

No there aren't. There are certain activities that must be always correct, you implement those by making a reliable system out of unreliable jobs, not by making the people 100% reliable.

Re:Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, O... by ithkuil on Sunday January 14, 2018 @03:35PM (#16146223)
So, the people who are in charge of designing such a system need to do a good job. What if that too inevitably fails? You can either improve the system/process by learning from mistakes or blindly firing the culprits and replacing them with somebody who might well make the same mistake again
Re:Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, O... by ghaff on Saturday January 13, 2018 @04:58PM (#16141651)
That's fair and I'm not suggesting that every screw up should just be shrugged off with an "to err is human" and it must be a systems problem. But for a one-off error, the person responsible probably already feels terrible and if they didn't grossly violate established protocols or did something as a joke or whatever, the result should be more along the lines of "Don't do this again!" and making it harder for it to happen.
Re:Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, O... by ben_jones on Saturday January 13, 2018 @05:10PM (#16141706)
To add to this, I've read more then a few stories already of people mass texting and calling their loved ones because they thought they might never see them again. This is a tragic human toll that needs to be acknowledged and appreciated for what it really is. It wasn't just a smoke alarm going of accidentally.
Re:Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, O... by ghaff on Saturday January 13, 2018 @05:19PM (#16141731)
Then there's the person I know in Hawaii who posted on Facebook that people were getting alerts and went on with her spin class :-) I don't dispute it was a serious error. On the other hand, I'm not sure the consequences of the mistake should factor too much into whether they need to sacrifice someone because of optics. It does of course but that doesn't mean it should.
Re:Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, O... by ImSkeptical on Saturday January 13, 2018 @05:38PM (#16141791)
The consequences of the error matter to the extent that the consequences of the error are predictably extreme.

I'll give an example. I work in an office building with many floors that have exact same layout. One day I was on a floor that wasn't mine, and went to where my desk should be, and tried to sit down. I was shocked, for a moment, to discover my coworkers had all been replaced by strangers. In this case, I made an absentminded mistake of not paying enough attention to my current location - but the consequences were trivial, so the mistake itself is no big deal. Now, on the other hand, suppose while driving down the road, I absentmindedly ignore a red light, plow through an intersection, and kill a family of five. This is also an absent minded mistake, but the predictable consequences of being absent minded while driving are a lot more extreme than being absent minded while walking about an office building.

To apply the logic of my example to the case at hand - imagine that in one scenario an employee is, during a boring moment, cleaning his keyboard with his chat application open. This results in that employee sending a nonsense message to a coworker. Silly mistake, and no big deal. Now, suppose that same employee has the "Missile Alert" app open and decides to clean their keyboard. This is a similar mistake, but with potentially bigger consequences. I think it's fair to treat these two actions differently.

Re:Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, O... by ghaff on Saturday January 13, 2018 @05:56PM (#16141849)
I did specifically say "because of optics." Certainly, I don't think there shouldn't be different expectations for acceptable errors under different circumstances.

Of course, the circumstances affect what the reasonable standard of care is. Oopsies by ship captains, surgeons, and even drivers are held to a different standard than me making a typo on some random thing I'm writing or a simple program.

In your example, running a red light is commonly taken as one of those things you just don't screw up on (and that can't be eliminated through automation at this time).

Re:Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, O... by TheAlchemist on Saturday January 13, 2018 @07:05PM (#16142118)
I would argue that someone probably deserves to be fired for this. It's obviously not the guy that pushed the button nor the guy that wrote the software. However, there was, probably, a guy that several years ago didn't do his job well - his job was to make sure that this kind of errors cannot happen, unless there is an intentional malicious action of course.

We see it all the time in IT - people totally misjudge the 'risk'. 1% risk of breakdown quite often seems acceptable to decision makers until it actually happens. Then all hell breaks loose.

Re:Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, O... by Matt3o12_ on Saturday January 13, 2018 @09:07PM (#16142447)
There is hardly just one person responsible for doing this. There was at least one developer who implemented this solution, at least “designer” that can up with a solution for the initial problem, a dozen managers who oversaw that whole project, up to the minister who must have been aware of this problem. Let alone everybody who ever worked with this system and never reported that “bug”. So if you want to fire someone, start at the top for not overseeing this correctly or hiring the wrong person for the job and then work your way to the bottom.

I believe it is much better to fix it (require a second authentication before sending those massages) and search for similar problems within the whole department to make sure something like this never happens again. Make sure everybody, including new hires, are aware of this incident, what the consequences were and that everybody is encouraged to report similar bugs and nobody has to be afraid to be fired when they make a mistake. Otherwise you just create an environment where everybody blames anybody but themselves and the “smallest” guy gets fired for mistakes other’s. This way, things get never fixed probably because everyone ist just afraid of the consequences.

Re:Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, O... by rickycook on Sunday January 14, 2018 @07:09PM (#16147423)
i’m not so sure there would have been any kind of designer. from my dealings with govt projects, especially internal ones, they rarely do any UX of any kind. the interface is ad-hoc from the devs, and you can’t expect a dev to design a fool proof interface.

if you direct the blame 1 level further, then it was whoever was responsive for budget/hiring/spec that didn’t ensure that there was a UX designer on the project, but at the same time you can kinda understand why not: the value of UX is frequently not understood, especially when people think “it’s just internal; why make it easy to use if only we see it?”. the answer of course is that you pay for internal systems every day in employee time.

anyway, the point i guess is you can probably trace the “blame” back far enough that it’s too far removed to say it’s anyone’s fault per se, but it proves the point that you need design across the board, and that’s frequently not well understood

Re:Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, O... by spc476 on Saturday January 13, 2018 @11:56PM (#16142863)
A few years ago we had an outage that cost us quite a bit of money [1]. The root cause was the deletion of a test record from the database we query (and run by the Oligarchist Phone Company) but the deletion had a domino effect on our service because of the way the error was treated by our side (the test record was never supposed to be deleted because it's used to ensure the database we query is up and running [2][3]).

From what I understand, we were told the record would never get removed, and we relied upon that. Could our error handling been better? Yes. Could the customer's procedures been better to prevent the record from being deleted? Yes. It was a mistake on both parties.

Who should have gotten fired?

[1] Very scary SLAs with the Oligarchist Phone Company.

[2] It's actually a DNS query. NAPTR records to be precise. Search on that if you are interested.

[3] It was also important because that was the only record we could query and not get charged for it. Everything in the telephony world cross-company (and even cross-department) gets charged. Somebody makes money; somebody pays money.

Re:Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, O... by bonestamp2 on Sunday January 14, 2018 @03:31AM (#16143336)
What does firing that person achieve?
Re:Alert About Missile Bound for Hawaii Was Sent in Error, O... by BatFastard on Saturday January 13, 2018 @05:11PM (#16141710)
Then we would ALL be unemployed, at least those of us who write software.