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Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by knolan on Saturday January 13, 2018 @06:16AM (#16139131)
Windows always strikes me as a mishmash of ideas with very little overarching vision. A somewhat superfluous example of this is the branding of basic system tools; you have things like Task Manager, Device Manager, Disk Management etc. On Vista and 7 you can access them by mousing about in the start menu a lot or by trying to search (or using run, or right clicking on Computer and selecting manage). But typing ‘Dev’ into search doesn’t return anything related to Device Manager and only when you type the full name does search return some long winded response like ‘Manage Devices and Drivers on this system’ in the middle of a wall of result text. It shows no connected vision between the ability of the search feature to surface succinct information and the design of the OS to differientiate its core tools. Attempting to be helpful by returning a list of tasks in long winged descriptions betrays the lack of coherence of each tool and its purpose.

MacOS largely succeeds in this regard. I can access Disk Utility simply by typing ‘du’ (or even just ‘di' or just ‘d’ since it learns your preference) into spotlight and hit enter. I can launch any app this way without the need to clutter by desktop, dock or taskbar with shortcuts. Disk Utility and the various other utilities generally get large well branded icons and names that set them apart. Many of the Windows tools just use pretty bland and similar looking tiny icons making the visual aspect of search useless.

Worse still is that if you can have several Device Manager programs installed. I’ve a lab system that requires Win7. The frame grabber is accessed through its own Device Manager and my flow control system has something similarly named.

Reading the article it is easy to see why this behaviour is the case. There is clearly very little time for polish and for a singular vision on how everything should look and feel (taste?). It not surprising to see new Mac users delight in the attention to detail of MacOS. Windows often is obtuse and gets in the way.

Windows 10, for all its sins, makes some big improvements. Right clicking the start button or pressing Super-X instantly returns a list of all these system tools.

Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by tinus_hn on Saturday January 13, 2018 @06:28AM (#16139173)
A major problem with Windows 10 is that its search is basically retarded. It’s easy to get into a situation where the query ‘printer’ will find the Devices & Printers applet, but the query ‘printers’ will not.
Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by proactivesvcs on Saturday January 13, 2018 @07:28AM (#16139343)
Or Search just doesn't return local results at all. Or the Start Menu often won't open to even get to Search :-(

Even on fresh, completely updated systems I've found the Start menu is so intermittent that I'm glad I didn't sell them. The quality of Microsoft's work is called into question when the feature you're meant to "Start" with doesn't work.

Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by Spooky23 on Saturday January 13, 2018 @09:20AM (#16139697)
A lot of the start problems were due to Microsoft making the backend of the start menu system a database instead of files.

There was a lot of locking issues, which broke in weird ways. My understanding is that the latest release gets rid of it.

Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by cm2187 on Saturday January 13, 2018 @05:34PM (#16141780)
They nevertheless shipped their core product with a completely broken core feature. I am not sold on this software as a service/the OS is in permanent beta approach.

In general I have an even bigger problem with the philosophy of what an OS should do. When I switch on my computer, it's not to admire the OS, its beautiful UI, etc. It is because I want to do something, code something, watch something, read something. I live in the applications not in the OS. The OS should be effortless, surprise-less, it should hide behind and do its basic tasks well. Windows 10 is the exact opposite. It's an OS that is in your face, which interrupts you with full screen banners all the time, which reboots you all the time, which shows you ads, shows you modal pop ups to tell you to do things differently, etc. This is not what we need an OS to do.

Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by Spooky23 on Saturday January 13, 2018 @06:16PM (#16141916)
I agree with you. IMO, Windows 10 is one of the worst products ever shipped.

The upside is that it is driving developers and users away from the platform. Windows is a dead man walking.

Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by contrarian_ on Saturday January 13, 2018 @09:56AM (#16139813)
The network connection side panel also seems to never open when you want it to, only to open 2 minutes later when you are watching a fullscreen video.
Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by jschwartzi on Saturday January 13, 2018 @08:45PM (#16142388)
On my work laptop, typing "Mouse" into the search box only lists the mouse settings about 50% of the time. Usually closing the search box and then repeating the search returns the correct result.

As to why I have to open mouse settings so often, Windows inexplicably forgets my scroll speed setting every time I plug my mouse in.

Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by Macha on Saturday January 13, 2018 @07:03AM (#16139264)
This is also possible with spotlight. The most clear example for me was the day I typed "polyc<enter>" for Polycom instead of my usual "poly<enter>" and ended up on the wikipedia page for polycystic ovarian syndrome instead of a video call application.
Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by knolan on Saturday January 13, 2018 @07:20AM (#16139311)
Yes, but the correct search result will be usually be second or third in the list. Using the polyc string a few times will rank it top of the list.

Windows search will often just refuse to give the correct answer until you type an exact match.

Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by Sylos on Saturday January 13, 2018 @07:08AM (#16139281)
An example from Windows Server 2016: When I search for "SQL" or for "Studio", it'll find SQL Server Management Studio. But when I search for "SQL Studio", it won't.
Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by pfooti on Saturday January 13, 2018 @09:40AM (#16139765)
Please avoid using the r word conversationally.
Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by klibertp on Sunday January 14, 2018 @06:15AM (#16143770)
Why? Asking as a non-native English speaker, please excuse me if it's obvious. Is "retarded" somehow worse than "fucked up" or simply "shit", which seem to be accepted in casual conversations around here?
Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by pfooti on Sunday January 14, 2018 @12:01PM (#16145005)
Yes. It is considered by the mentally disabled community to be similar to the n word. It is a word that was used to marginalize an entire population, now used to describe something bad.

Consider, as a non native speaker, if English speakers used your language of origin to mean "terrible". I don't know your language, but imagine it was Latin, and kids would taunt each other saying, "ha ha you're so latin" on the playground, and "windows search is simply latin". This is a constructed example, of course, but the issue is not that the word is offensive (fucked, or shit would have been fine), but that the word derives its power from being linked to marginalizing and othering people.

For more:

https://www.r-word.org/default.aspx?viewfullsite=Y

Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by klibertp on Sunday January 14, 2018 @01:58PM (#16145632)
Thanks, I didn't know that. I'm Polish, and, of course, we have such words; not even swear-words per se, just words consistently used over time in a derogatory manner, while also being associated with a group of people. We also have a very insulting word for mentally disabled people, equivalent to the English word "retard", but it functions only as a noun (so no direct equivalent of the "retarded" word) and applies only to people. It's interesting because both noun and adjective versions of a word for homosexual people exist, just like in English, and the same is true for many other insults, especially ethnicity and sex-based ones.

Anyway, I agree that such words should be avoided and not used. (Although it's hard to avoid it completely when talking about the word, without using it.)

Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by ersii on Sunday January 14, 2018 @04:14PM (#16146509)
Please don't treat pfooti's comment too seriously though, most people would not react to the way the original poster used the word and would disagree with the purported disrespect the usage implies according to pfooti.

The world is a big place and everyone does not (thankfully) live in the liberal US coastal areas :-)

Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by pfooti on Sunday January 14, 2018 @05:53PM (#16147011)
Speaking objectively, I linked to an appeal from a broad coalition of disability rights activists to stop using a particular term in the vernacular that has a demonstrable link to the othering. This is not just me, nor is it "liberal coastal areas".

A little more concretely: it's not up to the person saying anything to decide whether or not the thing they say conveys disrespect or harm. It is up to the people harmed by those words to decide. You can, of course, choose to ignore the harm done and continue on as before.

That said, I'm sure the OP's intent was innocent enough - this is the kind of thoughtless use of the word that I (and many other people) work to problematize. I had intended to do so publicly but without much fanfare (one quick sentence), to draw attention to this fact in hopes that we could all work to shift the language.

Speaking subjectively, I find it troubling that the notion that basic decency toward other humans who have a relatively simple ask (use "terrible" or "garbagefire" or "shitty" instead of "r_") is viewed as a "liberal US coastal" practice that should be avoided out of sheer tribalism. Not sure there's much else to say rather than "troubling".

This whole thread is OT at this point, but I'm simply not willing to let this go. The lexicon has plenty of synonyms for "is terrible and unintelligently designed and frustrating to use" that we can afford to drop one.

Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by cm2187 on Saturday January 13, 2018 @12:00PM (#16140218)
Windows 10 has its own UI problems. It is very chatty, possibly even more than Vista, there is an almost permanent flow of notifications on the bottom right corner of the screen. When searching for something in the start menu the result is completely unpredictable, and searching for "control panel", "mmc" or "adapters" usually yields nothing, but sometimes it does. The permanently evolving two control panels makes that even when you learn where a setting is, it can move to another panel within 6 months. There are many rough edges. Like you launch a remote desktop connection, you get a grey window asking for credentials, the login is not selected by default and no keyboard shortcut allows you to select the login box, you must use the mouse. I really question whether Microsoft engineers even use their own OS.
Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by revelation on Saturday January 13, 2018 @12:59PM (#16140440)
My biggest problem with Windows 10 right now is that with creators update, they basically decided to break scrolling on touchpads. Instead of smooth scrolling, you now move your fingers a bunch, then the whole screen shifts suddenly.

This completely breaks scrolling. My eyes can't properly follow that and the touch component is off: you move your fingers, nothing happens, then suddenly a lot. It's not continuous, which makes no sense for finger interaction.

Apparently it's because the app has to support the specific touch input events for scrolling and before creators update, they would simulate it. Now they don't. I really don't give a fuck for their reason if it means even scrolling in Explorer doesn't work anymore.

Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by fredsted on Saturday January 13, 2018 @06:31AM (#16139178)
Your point about searching is really interests because I feel like it's a good example of what happens when you care about user experience. I think that Spotlight, at the time, was really heralded as a really good search engine. Why? It found what you wanted.

On Windows Vista (and later versions) search, sure, it would find the things you were looking for. But no-one gave a thought to how it should be displayed. Does the search work? Check. Feature done.

Apple designed Spotlight in a way that it would actually return the results you expect when you type a search query.

I bet it took a lot of effort at Apple, too, because making a good search is really difficult. If you just depend on the tools given to you by your database, you'll probably end up with something that works, but not necessarily something that does what you want.

Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by knolan on Saturday January 13, 2018 @07:28AM (#16139344)
I think a lot of it is helped by the way MacOS works. You’ve got an Applications directory in which each app is listed as a monolithic package (or in a sub directory for built-in things like the terminal).

Windows has various locations where apps are typically installed or dumped (Program files, Program files x86 , program data, app data...) where the particular executable in buried somewhere amongst everything else. Shortcuts to these and various other applications are scattered all over the place.

If you build such a simple approach to dropping applications into a single directory with big obvious icons, not only does it look clean to a user but it prevents naming duplication and allows your search tool to match to this directory first so you can esasily use Spotlight as a launcher.

Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Saturday January 13, 2018 @11:33AM (#16140120)
In my opinion, the whole Application Bundle/AppDir/PortableApp/whatever concept is just so clearly the right way to do application management that I have difficulty understanding how anyone could think otherwise. It's simple, intuitive, conflict free, fits perfectly into the file management metaphor, etc.
Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by fredsted on Saturday January 13, 2018 @01:18PM (#16140507)
What's interesting is that various types of users find themselves with different problems using the App Bundle way of distributing applications.

For Windows users switching to Mac OS X, it's not really something they're used to doing. Instead of downloading an installer, clicking "Open" in the browser, and just following a guide leads to less issues with placing the application the correct place (Program Files), instead you get either a Zip file (so the bundle is in Downloads), an actual Installer (typically a .pkg), or a Disk Image which is often never unmounted. (I once saw a family member with 7 Flash Update disk images mounted)

As such, a lot of OS X users find themselves with a the Skype app in Desktop (inside a Disk Image), their Mail on the dock and some other app in Documents or Downloads. It requires that you organise it yourself.

Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Saturday January 13, 2018 @02:03PM (#16140745)
> It requires that you organise it yourself.

Another way of saying it is that it lets you organize it yourself.

There will always be people who don't understand, or care to understand, how the system works. You can put in all the hand-holdy nonsense you want to cater to them and they'll still exist, but you'll be adding tedious and unnecessary hurdles in the workflow of people who do know what's going on.

Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by ygra on Saturday January 13, 2018 @11:22AM (#16140078)
> Windows has various locations where apps are typically installed or dumped (Program files, Program files x86 , program data, app data...)

To be fair, neither Program Data (which is effectively ALl Users AppData), nor AppData are endorsed as application installation locations by Microsoft. For a variety of reasons. Chrome started quite a trend, though for installations without admin privileges to install to AppData for convenience.

Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by Stratoscope on Sunday January 14, 2018 @03:11PM (#16146091)
I'm not sure what not being endorsed means in this context, but I distinctly remember Microsoft going to considerable work back in the days of Windows 2000 to support per-user installations.

The big change was in the registry: HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT was no longer a direct shortcut to HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Classes, but instead was a dynamically merged view of that key and HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Classes.

This allowed you to register COM objects for the current user without requiring administrative privileges.

I and many other people were doing per-user installs long before Chrome existed.

This is especially useful for apps that auto-update. If you install in Program Files [(x86)] then you will pop a UAC prompt every time the app updates. If you install per-user it can be a silent update.

Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by quesera on Saturday January 13, 2018 @08:56AM (#16139606)
Spotlight will find applications in any location on your disk.

Also, Safari.app (e.g.) is not an executable -- it's essentially just a folder with special display characteristics in the Finder. Many app bundles contain several executables.

Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by knolan on Saturday January 13, 2018 @09:29AM (#16139726)
But spotlight doesn’t search inside those bundles, that’s the main difference. Even the ability of MacOS to list applications when using the open with context is so much faster compared to windows which grinds for several seconds to populate the list.

Heck even using the New... context window in Explorer is a joke.

Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by vetinari on Saturday January 13, 2018 @08:33PM (#16142361)
MacOS has also not only bunch of preferred locations, where to find applications (except for /Applications and ~/Applications also /System/Library/CoreServices, for example), but also allows the user to place the apps anywhere. As other mentioned, users will place them on desktop, in downloads folder, etc.

On top of that, getting info about the application involves parsing .plist files, followed by parsing localization.

Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by twhb on Sunday January 14, 2018 @06:07AM (#16143749)
The first is for system-wide apps, the second for apps that the user doesn’t share with others, the third for some parts of the OS itself. It would be insane to throw all that in one place.

Similarly, yes, getting app info involves parsing files in a known location with a known format, how could that situation be better?

I’m not sure how often people fail to put applications where they go. Especially nowadays, where most applications ship as .dmg files that open to a giant arrow telling you to drag the app to Applications, and many nag you if they’re run while not there, and App Store solves this entirely by just putting them there.

Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by pjc50 on Saturday January 13, 2018 @03:50PM (#16141325)
The decision to replace some but only about half of the system configuration dialogs with "Metro" ones (which are worse on desktop) is baffling. It makes it completely inconsistent.
Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by skgoa on Monday January 15, 2018 @07:43AM (#16150128)
Olus the new dialogs are missing functionality and in some cases the functionality is greyed out for no discernible reason.
Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by pqh on Saturday January 13, 2018 @11:49AM (#16140184)
Try the Cinnamon WM on Linux. It's the best of both Mac and Windows' interfaces without the worst of either.
Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by nofilter on Saturday January 13, 2018 @02:29PM (#16140884)
I'd recommend Elementary OS for that. Great small team behind it doing excellent open source work and the design team is also far superiour to those of the competition on the Linux space.
Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by cptskippy on Saturday January 13, 2018 @10:52AM (#16139984)
Oh it's worse than that. Note the name of the app that comes up when you search for "Disk Management", "Create and format hard disk partitions".
Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by Stratoscope on Saturday January 13, 2018 @03:25PM (#16141175)
> you have things like Task Manager, Device Manager, Disk Management etc. On Vista and 7 you can access them by mousing about in the start menu a lot or by trying to search (or using run, or right clicking on Computer and selecting manage).

Windows+X is your friend. It's the power user menu with all of the things you mentioned on it.

There are a ton of useful Windows+key shortcuts. Try all the letters and the arrow keys too.

Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by alexanderchr on Saturday January 13, 2018 @05:34PM (#16141778)
Right clicking the start button also brings up the same menu.
Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by knolan on Saturday January 13, 2018 @04:17PM (#16141460)
Yes, I already note that at the end of my post.
Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by Eridrus on Sunday January 14, 2018 @01:52PM (#16145595)
Any system that lives.long enough will be a mishmash of ideas that doesn't fully integrate. OSs face this particularly heavily since they have to deal with 3rd party code aka back compat.
Re:What Really Happened with Vista: An Insider's Retrospective by yuhong on Sunday January 14, 2018 @04:01AM (#16143406)
That Win-X menu was actually introduced in Win8.