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Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by frgtpsswrdlame on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @10:08AM (#16115389)
>If I could buy a five-year put on every one of the cryptocurrencies, I’d be glad to do it but I would never short a dime’s worth.”

Hmm, in that way you could see it as the market around cryptocurrencies lacking the financial complexity that could bring their volatility back down to more normal levels.

Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by panarky on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @10:17AM (#16115474)
During the 2008 crisis Buffett bought a $5 billion stake in Goldman Sachs. He didn't buy shares on any exchange, he dealt directly with Goldman.

Buffett doesn't need complex financial markets because he does custom transactions directly with companies.

A Winklevoss could easily sell him a billion-dollar five-year put, but he wouldn't like the price.

Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @10:56AM (#16115842)
> he wouldn't like the price

For fun, let's try pricing a Bitcoin put option using the Black-Scholes-Merton model [1]. This model is a simplified version of real-life options models, but our parameter uncertainty will dominate the model's anyway.

I'll use the $14,400 Coinbase price [2] for both our S and K inputs, i.e. we're pricing a European put struck at spot. Term is 5 years. This site [3] says Bitcoin's historic 252-day volatility is 5.21%. Sure. We want the 5-year 365-day volatility, i.e. 14.0% [4].

The real shit show in this example is the rates component. If we use this 57% number [5], the put is worthless. We're using a Bitcoin-dollar price for the stock and strike, so let's assume U.S. dollar funding (since Bitcoin does not natively support rates in the way modern currencies do). The 5-year Treasury yields 2.25% [6].

BSM says...$1,037.01.

(Rho dominates tau, or in English, the rates component is about 2.5x more meaningful than the volatility component.)

Raising our rate to the call money rate [7] we get $792.84 with rates continuing to dominate volatility.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black–Scholes_model

[2] https://www.coinbase.com/charts

[3] https://bitvol.info

[4] sqrt([5 x 365] / 252) x 5.21

[5] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-09/keynes-wo...

[6] https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/i...

[7] https://www.bankrate.com/rates/interest-rates/call-money.asp...

Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by FabHK on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @03:44PM (#16118897)
I'll buy a 5yr ATM put at 1038 USD!

1. There's no way rates dominate vol for BTC.

2. Bitcoin vol is way higher than that. It's obviously higher than most stocks, and stocks are in the 20% range.

My quick calculation gives me an annualised vol of about 90% over the last year, and 140% over the last month.

That gives a put value between USD 8000 and 12000, in other words approaching the "infinite vol" limit (present value of strike).

EDIT to add: BSM takes annualised vol (or, to put it differently, vol enters only in the term sigma^2*T, and that product must be dimensionless, thus the unit of vol is 1/sqrt(year), or whatever unit you use for T). To compute it, take the average of squared log returns over a period (ie, take average of LN(P(t)/P(t-1))^2), annualise by multiplying with 365 if you have daily prices (or 252 if you have business daily prices), and take the square root of that.

Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by bluedevil2k on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @11:33AM (#16116325)
You didn't finish pricing out the put option. I calculate $475 for a put. But think about this a second. That's a crazy low price for this kind of investment. You're only paying a 3.3% premium to hold a put I can exercise at any point in the next 5 years. At any point in the next 5 years, if BTC goes down by rougly 7% I'm in the money. That's a daily swing for BTC in a normal week.

I think the volatility input in this equation is way off.

Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by bluedevil2k on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @11:41AM (#16116417)
And anyone who thinks this is a fair price for a PUT on BTC, please contact me as I will buy unlimited amounts of puts if you're willing to put up 50% as collateral.
Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by FabHK on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @03:55PM (#16119004)
Me too! Depending on your credit, that is. Finally a get-rich-quick-scheme I can get behind.
Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @11:42AM (#16116419)
> I think the volatility input in this equation is way off

I agree. One's ability to price a put on Bitcoin is probably anti-correlated with one's willingness to sell one.

Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by MarkMc on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @11:16AM (#16116089)
2008 was an exception - most of Buffett's investments have been in the open market where he was simply the highest bidder at the time.

The problem with a Winklevoss put is likely the credit risk, not the price

Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by isolli on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @10:53AM (#16115810)
I think he would worry more about counterparty risk.
Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by cma on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @10:14AM (#16115450)
The difference between a put and a short is a short has unlimited downside (the price you are shorting can go up far more than it can go down).

This must mean Buffett thinks crypto has a good chance of exploding in value! Buy Kodak! /s

Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by csomar on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @11:29AM (#16116277)
I'm pretty sure you can construct that instrument for the right amount. I'm afraid will be exorbitantly high that he'll have to "re-consider" it.
Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by elhudy on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @10:17AM (#16115472)
I thought there are exchanges which allow crypto options trading?
Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @10:37AM (#16115664)
Why would you trust, in the event of a Bitcoin meltdown, which is the case where your put pays off, that those exchanges would be in a position to honor their contracts?
Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by elhudy on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @10:57AM (#16115857)
I'm not sure what you mean. Unless I am completely ignorant of the way financial markets work, the exchange is exchanging between two parties, and skimming off the top. They do not care what the price of Bitcoin is, as long as there is trading volume. They do not lose money in the event of a meltdown. The people selling the put options do.
Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @11:47AM (#16116477)
> the exchange is exchanging between two parties, and skimming off the top

Nobody wants to run a credit check every time they buy an option. That just turns the premium into a fancy loan.

If you buy an option on an American options exchange, it is cleared by the OCC [1]. They are everyone's counterparty. There is a long chain of people who have to default for you not to get your money. (Basically, the financial system has to melt down in a nation-state ending way.)

I have no idea how Bitcoin options are being handled, but suffice it to say, counterparty risk dominates any other component.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Options_Clearing_Corporation

Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by elhudy on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @12:44PM (#16117066)
Thanks for the info, that makes a lot more sense. I suppose I was under the impression that bitcoin exchanges would be under the same regulations as regular exchanges, considering they are operated by the same large american companies (e.g. CME)
Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by UweSchmidt on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @02:21PM (#16118007)
Whoops, that couldn't be further from the truth. A lot of what these exchanges do would be super illegal in the real world!
Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by icelancer on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @12:28PM (#16116915)
Try this, then:

Prior to the housing crash, multiple people figured out that CDOs were full of shit and bankers were committing massive fraud with mortgage bonds. Traders could purchase credit default swaps (CDSes) to capitalize on this risk and pay the premiums until the correction hit, at which point they'd cash in huge.

But uh, here's the problem: The same bankers that were investing in mortgage fraud (all of them) were the ones that would sell you the CDSes and cash your premiums. If the housing market was truly built on fraud and corruption - and it was - and banks could collapse - and they did, requiring a bailout that the banks knew was coming - maybe the bank wouldn't be solvent enough to pay you on your bet that you so rightfully won. Your largest upside win is capped, and thus the entire trade could be easily net negative.

Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by cdjk on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @10:31AM (#16115607)
Not in the volumes Buffett is interested in. And they are quite sketchy compare to regulated US financial markets.
Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by pzs on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @10:22AM (#16115514)
Futures are certainly available. I haven't heard of options yet, but that may just be my ignorance.
Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by jabujabu on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @10:25AM (#16115539)
Bitfinex, Bitmex
Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by frgtpsswrdlame on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @10:33AM (#16115627)
I think the counterparty risk involved in buying a long-dated (and expensive) put from one of those exchanges overwhelms any possible profitability. If Bitcoin really did crash, who's going to pay up for it? Right now there's not a very good answer.
Re:Buffett Says Stock Ownership Became More Attractive With ... by vasilipupkin on Wednesday January 10, 2018 @10:26AM (#16115548)
ledgerx