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Re:James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google by beebmam on Monday January 08, 2018 @02:12PM (#16099176)
Let's not forget that the metrics for "ability", especially in a field like software engineering, are highly unscientific.

People barely have any idea about how to hire a software engineer, much less judge someone's true "ability".

Preferences are also very complicated. People may prefer things very differently given the environment. That quote, along with many others, demonstrates the absolute lack of genuineness on the part of Damore.

Damore throws away any pretense of being objective/scientific when he makes claims like this based on metrics that are hardly measurable. A decent scientist would recognize that making claims with very serious implications like this is greatly irresponsible.

Re:James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google by moduspol on Monday January 08, 2018 @02:23PM (#16099352)
Why is it that one side gets to make claims accepted blindly as fact unquestionably (unequal representation of women is solely because of sexism) and the other side must be objective / scientific?
Re:James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google by beebmam on Monday January 08, 2018 @02:28PM (#16099422)
The reality is: we don't have a complete answer as to why there is unequal representation of women in tech. Period. We can explore this issue, and in the mean time, let's not make unsupportable claims and assumptions about humans, Ok?
Re:James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google by moduspol on Monday January 08, 2018 @02:50PM (#16099694)
Sounds good! So let's just hire the best candidate regardless of race or sex. Problem solved.
Re:James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google by nuet on Monday January 08, 2018 @03:41PM (#16100295)
And what happens if you don't?
Re:James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google by moduspol on Monday January 08, 2018 @03:52PM (#16100413)
Apparently I'll only accept objective scientific claims to the contrary. We're turning over a new leaf here.
Re:James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google by Veelox on Monday January 08, 2018 @04:50PM (#16100981)
I am okay with not making unsupportable claims and assumptions about humans but that isn't what is happening in tech. The reason given to explain the gender gap is sexism. Which is pretty close to unsupportable...
Re:James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google by beebmam on Monday January 08, 2018 @02:27PM (#16099407)
No. Neither side must make claims about what is not understood (which is nearly everything). Damore is the one making the claim, and one with very serious consequences.
Re:James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google by moduspol on Monday January 08, 2018 @02:38PM (#16099549)
Would it be fair then to describe Google's hiring policy as preferring the best candidate regardless of race / sex?
Re:James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google by beebmam on Monday January 08, 2018 @03:17PM (#16100012)
No, because "best" is highly unscientific and subjective, and can change in an uncountable number of ways depending on environment.
Re:James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google by moduspol on Monday January 08, 2018 @03:21PM (#16100066)
Ok, then what's your objective and scientific way of hiring?
Re:James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google by beebmam on Monday January 08, 2018 @03:41PM (#16100300)
There isn't one. That's the point. So don't make claims about it.
Re:James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google by DoofusOfDeath on Monday January 08, 2018 @02:17PM (#16099249)
> Preferences are also very complicated. People may prefer things very differently given the environment. That quote, along with many others, demonstrates the absolute lack of genuineness on the part of Damore.

I'm not sure how you get from (1) his logic seems flawed, to (2) he's being disingenuous. Can you please elaborate?

Re:James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google by beebmam on Monday January 08, 2018 @02:25PM (#16099385)
1) I'm not saying his logic is flawed. I'm saying what he's basing his logic upon, that these notions of preferences and ability are scientifically measurable, are false.

2) He has an preconceived theory of how "ability" and "preference" work. The science does not point to his conclusions, because the science cannot point to any conclusions: ability is simply not scientifically understood or defined at all in the software engineering field, and preferences are barely understood and have many weird consequences (Dan Ariely's work is a great example of this). He is being disingenuous because he is making a claim without any ability to back it up, simply because it fits with his preconceived theory. That's disingenuous. If he were to say, "It seems to me that", or "What I've seen in my life is...", instead of making a strict claim. A strict claim requires actual evidence and well defined terms, both of which he has none.

Re:James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google by mpweiher on Monday January 08, 2018 @03:17PM (#16100009)
> notions of preferences and ability are scientifically measurable, are false.

Hmm...as to preferences, there are two easy tests:

1. You ask people

When you do, you find that people generally don't like CS. People in developed countries less than in less developed countries. And women less than men, with the gap becoming bigger in more developed countries. And girls less than boys, with the gap becoming larger in more developed countries.

You can also ask them why they choose that way, and in less developed or less prosperous countries, more people say "because of the money". In more prosperous countries, people are, well, more prosperous, so money is less of an issue.

2. You look at how people choose

Same pattern. It's not as if women are forced out of computing and into early childhood education. They choose to go there because, apparently, that is what they want to do.

Re:James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google by beebmam on Monday January 08, 2018 @03:42PM (#16100304)
What are you talking about? This is completely unrelated to what I said.