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Re:A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet by jstanley on Sunday December 31, 2017 @01:48PM (#16041979)
If it was a public art installation, wouldn't that leak their entropy?
Re:A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet by disillusioned on Monday January 01, 2018 @05:05AM (#16045506)
Short of them actually publishing the image signature the camera takes as the random input, no. Imagine just how much sensor noise is sitting across the image, and figure on other elements others have mentioned: the angle, the aperture, etc. I imagine two near-identical frames without any movement between them taken on a single camera might still have a significant amount of entropy between them, especially if you're using the camera raw data, for those reasons.

They (CF) discuss this on their deep dive:

>>>The flow of the “lava” in a lava lamp is very unpredictable,6 and so the entropy in those lamps is incredibly high. Even if we conservatively assume that the camera has a resolution of 100x100 pixels (of course it’s actually much higher) and that an attacker can guess the value of any pixel of that image to within one bit of precision (e.g., they know that a particular pixel has a red value of either 123 or 124, but they aren’t sure which it is), then the total amount of entropy produced by the image is 100x100x3 = 30,000 bits (the x3 is because each pixel comprises three values - a red, a green, and a blue channel). This is orders of magnitude more entropy than we need. [1]

1: https://blog.cloudflare.com/lavarand-in-production-the-nitty...

Re:A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet by jstanley on Monday January 01, 2018 @06:10AM (#16045655)
If the information encoded in the lava lamps is not important for the entropy, why do they even need to be there?

If it just needs to be some image, and it doesn't actually matter if others know what it can see, why not just point the camera at a normal lamp, or an empty room, or the sky?

Re:A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet by crazyhatfish on Monday January 01, 2018 @07:16AM (#16045782)
It is, the author is just saying that even without it they still have enough entropy in the system to be secure enough.

Any old image doesn't have pretty strong random number generators in it.

Re:A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet by Operyl on Sunday December 31, 2017 @02:28PM (#16042265)
You’d have to get a picture in the exact same angle, which is unlikely.
Re:A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet by code_duck on Sunday December 31, 2017 @08:34PM (#16044116)
You’d also have to be using very similar equipment and know precisely how they derive their random numbers from the image.
Re:A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet by jstanley on Sunday December 31, 2017 @03:15PM (#16042628)
It leaks information at any angle.
Re:A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet by stouset on Sunday December 31, 2017 @05:06PM (#16043272)
Doesn’t really matter. With modern CSPRNGs, even if one input is compromised you’re still as strong as the remaining entropy (as long as those sources are statistically independent from the compromised one).

If this was the only source of randomness it might be a problem, but if they’re `cat`ting it into `/dev/random` as an external source, it can only really improve things. Even if someone were to compromise the feed from the office to the datacenter, it wouldn’t matter since they’d have to know the internal RNG state in order to “negate” its randomness with the lava lamp feed. If they have that, you’re already lost anyway.

Re:A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet by meej on Sunday December 31, 2017 @03:27PM (#16042711)
This is addressed in the last paragraph of the article.
Re:A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet by jstanley on Sunday December 31, 2017 @03:44PM (#16042837)
Not really. They say that having random (ha) people in the picture improves the entropy, but they don't address the possibility of people using it to gain information about Cloudflare's entropy pool.
Re:A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet by notatoad on Sunday December 31, 2017 @04:34PM (#16043121)
presumably if you set up camp with a camera in their lava lamp room, somebody is going to raise some eyebrows.
Re:A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet by gerdesj on Sunday December 31, 2017 @05:55PM (#16043486)
Not only that but your cameras are going to have to be precisely in the same place as theirs, with an identical view and be identical models with identical sensor variation, dust on lens etc etc etc ad nauseam.

As you say, that might raise a few eyebrows.

Re:A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet by frankydp on Sunday December 31, 2017 @08:01PM (#16043986)
Wouldn't you just cover their camera with paper or some other known pattern, if you were going to try that?
Re:A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet by IgorPartola on Sunday December 31, 2017 @09:48PM (#16044374)
Ooh! Can you shine a laser into the camera to blind it? Burn the sensor to a crisp and then let that seed the CSPRNG!
Re:A wall of lava lamps helps encrypt the internet by mygo on Monday January 01, 2018 @12:14AM (#16044811)
Great way to test how quickly you can get thrown out by security guards