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Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by meri_dian on Saturday December 30, 2017 @01:41PM (#16036658)
Police were responding, in this case, to a call made by someone claiming to be armed and holding his family hostage. You do not assume a call is fraudulent in a situation like that. You assume the worst.

What happened to the civilian is a tragedy. He should not have been killed. But the person most at fault here is the one who lied and called in SWAT in the first place.

Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by StavrosK on Saturday December 30, 2017 @02:05PM (#16036807)
> But the person most at fault here is the one who lied and called in SWAT in the first place.

It completely mystifies me how people can think that people with guns were justified in fatally shooting someone with no guns. That kind of thing should just never happen, either subdue them or let them get away, why are you shooting them? What could they possibly have done, short of ran to the kitchen to get a knife and then ran back and tried to stab someone? How can you mistake anything someone unarmed does for a deadly threat?

Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by MikkoFinell on Saturday December 30, 2017 @02:30PM (#16036991)
It mystifies me why you believe anyone thinks the shooting was justified. Literally NO ONE has said that. Please try to engage with the actual debate instead of making up strawmen to attack.
Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by anigbrowl on Saturday December 30, 2017 @05:23PM (#16038025)
There are people right here in this thread who think the shooting was justified because the guy at the house didn't follow instructions carefully enough and the police (supposedly) had to assume the worst.
Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by StavrosK on Saturday December 30, 2017 @02:49PM (#16037098)
The grandparent said that the person most at fault was the person who called it in. I disagree, the people most at fault were the police, by far.
Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by reificator on Saturday December 30, 2017 @03:21PM (#16037294)
I get where you're coming from, but the person who called it in named themselves SWauTistic and makes a hobby of this behavior.
Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by StavrosK on Saturday December 30, 2017 @03:28PM (#16037353)
Yes, the guy is definitely guilty of some degree of murder, because he knew what he was doing. However, I'm contrasting it with my country, where calling in such a situation would be very unlikely to get someone killed, because the police are much more reticent to shoot people. In such a case, the caller could be guilty of wasting resources, but not of murder. The only difference is the handling of each situation by the police, hence my reasoning above.
Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by reificator on Saturday December 30, 2017 @03:43PM (#16037469)
> However, I'm contrasting it with my country, where calling in such a situation would be very unlikely to get someone killed, because the police are much more reticent to shoot people.

Yeah, but I don't think that's reasonable to do. If you live in the U.S. you know this is a problem, choosing to still do it is more damning.

Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by StavrosK on Saturday December 30, 2017 @03:49PM (#16037516)
I think the disagreement here lies in that people think "given that the police is likely to kill someone, the person who called in an innocent man is a murderer", and I agree. However, I contend that the police should not be likely to kill someone, exactly because they might be killing innocent people. The police are the ones with guns and ostensible training.
Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by reificator on Saturday December 30, 2017 @04:18PM (#16037668)
> However, I contend that the police should not be likely to kill someone

I'm not arguing that they should. I'm saying that they are, and having knowledge that they are makes the one calling in the threat seriously in the wrong. I can't stress enough, the caller's twitter handle is SWauTistic. They know full well what they're doing.

Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by StavrosK on Saturday December 30, 2017 @05:46PM (#16038154)
We completely agree on this.
Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by MikkoFinell on Saturday December 30, 2017 @03:33PM (#16037402)
How many gun-related homicides are there per year in your country?
Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by StavrosK on Saturday December 30, 2017 @03:36PM (#16037422)
1.5 per 100k (most of which are suicides), gun culture isn't big here.
Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by MikkoFinell on Saturday December 30, 2017 @03:56PM (#16037569)
That's why it seems a bit unreasonable to compare how the police in your country would react to how American police unfortunately reacted in this scenario. Because the situations those officers face on a daily basis is completely different. American cops can reasonably expect to regularly deal with armed and hostile psychos, unlike the cops in many other countries. Again, that's not to say that the shooting was in any way justified, but try to put yourself in the life of American police officers.
Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by StavrosK on Saturday December 30, 2017 @04:08PM (#16037627)
Yes, that's another good point, and a big factor in why the police there acts the way it does. Yet, even with all the needless deaths, gun culture remains widespread.
Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by chrismcb on Saturday December 30, 2017 @07:28PM (#16038542)
How do you know he didn't have a gun? You were told her has a gun, you get to the house and the person letters his arm and then raises it and starts pointing it at a fellow officer... What do you do? I don't think this particular incident is as cut and dry as you think it is.
Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by ams6110 on Saturday December 30, 2017 @10:08PM (#16039125)
> How can you mistake anything someone unarmed does for a deadly threat?

A person's bare hands can represent a deadly threat if he is close enough. Not that that was the case in this situation.

Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by learc83 on Saturday December 30, 2017 @11:38PM (#16039378)
Not to multiple trained, armed, and armored men it doesn't, which is normally the case with police shootings.
Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by ryanwaggoner on Saturday December 30, 2017 @02:25PM (#16036958)
The obvious answer is: because you think they ARE armed, and if you wait until they start shooting at you, it’s too late.
Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by anigbrowl on Saturday December 30, 2017 @05:40PM (#16038129)
We have 1 possibly-armed-with-a-handgun guy of unknown intent and ability on a porch, vs 5+ SWAT officers who are definitely trained in shooting people, are in cover, have body armor, rifles (presumably good ones with scopes and whatever else), and high-powered lights trained on the house.

So yeah, I would say they should wait until a suspect starts shooting because they have an overwhelming tactical advantage. Yes, that's a risk because the guy on the porch might be John Wick or Jason Bourne or the Terminator, but most people, even most professional criminals, are not expert marksmen under any circumstances, let alone ones where they're at a large tactical disadvantage.

Next time you meet a cop socially, ask them if criminals are smart or supervillains 'like in the movies' The cop will laugh and regale you with stories of how dumb and inept most criminals are. Police know perfectly well that most people don't have a clue, are easily intimidated by police, and not super-skilled. Sure, they have to consider the small number of dangerous exceptions, but overstating the risk factors is also a really convenient way to get off the hook for their own poor firing discipline.

Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by valuearb on Saturday December 30, 2017 @03:48PM (#16037507)
Too late for what?

What do you think will happen if a shirtless man on a porch a pulls a pistol, while you have your high powered rifle's scope locked on their chest while you are wearing body armor, positioned behind a police car, a few hundred feet away?

Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by StavrosK on Saturday December 30, 2017 @02:48PM (#16037090)
And if it turns out they weren't armed, you were way, way too early.
Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by joshuamorton on Saturday December 30, 2017 @03:17PM (#16037265)
The US military rules of engagement disagree.
Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by Silhouette on Saturday December 30, 2017 @03:26PM (#16037338)
This was apparently a SWAT team that initiated a confrontation in response to a report of a situation involving firearms. Why weren't they already behind cover so that if the guy really did come out of the door shooting at them, they were protected? And if they were, why was it necessary to shoot first when the situation obviously wasn't clear at all? Nothing about this adds up.
Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by 7952 on Saturday December 30, 2017 @02:02PM (#16036791)
The worse outcome is that the innocent bystander is killed. That could be a hostage, or some random person caught up in a hoax. The whole point of the police presence is to protect that person. In this situation they failed in that objective.
Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by FireBeyond on Saturday December 30, 2017 @02:38PM (#16037036)
A call from someone calling in via a VOIP line that was effectively out of country, yet pretending to be the neighbor. Corroboration is a good thing, and based on my (first hand) knowledge of what information shows up on a 911 dispatchers screen about call origin, should have prompted more 'skepticism'. Little details like "it's a one story house" (when in fact it's two story), and the like.

> But the person most at fault here is the one who lied and called in SWAT in the first place.

This I absolutely agree with.

Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by Silhouette on Saturday December 30, 2017 @01:47PM (#16036699)
You do not assume a call is fraudulent in a situation like that. You assume the worst.

We're talking about literally a life or death situation here. Why on earth would you assume anything, rather than being cautious and trying to confirm for sure what the situation actually is?

Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by anigbrowl on Saturday December 30, 2017 @05:22PM (#16038017)
You do not assume a call is fraudulent in a situation like that. You assume the worst.

How about not assuming anything until you have more information to go on? The fake caller is definitely at fault here, and so are the police.

Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by valuearb on Saturday December 30, 2017 @03:45PM (#16037484)
Most of these calls are false or inaccurate. You don't assume the worst, or you screw up just like these cops did.
Re:LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting c... by malka on Saturday December 30, 2017 @02:22PM (#16036928)
> You do not assume a call is fraudulent in a situation like that. You assume the worst.

I disagree.