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Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by scrollaway on Saturday December 16, 2017 @12:58PM (#15940698)
There are plenty of open source companies. The company I founded is built on open source principles many of them inspired by Mozilla. It's a bigger challenge, because it restricts your freedoms as a company in favour of the user's freedoms. However Mozilla's mistakes are not due to the open source nature of the company at all, they are due to mismanagement.

They are due to poor understanding of your own userbase. Poor communication with users and employees. Complete lack of judgement.

These are sticks Mozilla puts in its own wheels. It's hard to make money, but it's easy to know what not to do. Simply asking your employees: "Is this a good idea?" would have yielded a clear "Fuck no". That they did not do that (or did, but chose to ignore it) is a terrible sign, open source or not.

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by TAForObvReasons on Saturday December 16, 2017 @01:06PM (#15940770)
https://twitter.com/dherman76/status/433320156496789504 exemplifies the poor misunderstanding of the userbase:

> Excited to share the launch of @mozilla @firefox Tiles program, the first of our user-enhancing programs

To call advertisements "user-enhancing" is an affront and betrays values like privacy that Mozilla claims to espouse

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by ubernostrum on Sunday December 17, 2017 @03:17AM (#15944784)
betrays values like privacy

I do not (now -- at the time that person made that tweet, I did, but not on the browser) work at Mozilla.

However. The "tiles" concept was literally an experiment in whether it's possible to construct an ad system that does respect privacy.

The basic idea was:

* Advertisers submit their ads to Mozilla. Mozilla wraps them up into "bundles", made up of a bunch of different ads along with metadata to use in determining which to show.

* The browser downloads the "bundles" from Mozilla, and caches them locally.

* The browser, based on local data only it has access to, and the metadata in the bundles, decides which ads to show.

In other words, unlike a Google-style model where the ads are stored remote, loaded on demand, and the decision of what to show is made on the server side, this stored all ad content locally and the decision of what to show was also made entirely locally. So neither the advertiser nor the distributor could know whether a particular person saw an ad or (if they happened to) why the decision was made to show them that ad rather than a different one.

You may not like that, and you're free not to like it. But to argue that it "betrays" privacy is simply factually false. And Mozilla's mission is, in large part, to find ways to advance and sustain the web in ways that respect the users. Trying to develop a privacy-respecting way to deliver ads -- since so much of the web is dependent on ads -- is entirely within that mission.

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by dleslie on Saturday December 16, 2017 @01:34PM (#15940975)
Time to do away with whoever led the charge on this one.
Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by ksk on Saturday December 16, 2017 @06:31PM (#15942906)
>Simply asking your employees: "Is this a good idea?" would have yielded a clear "Fuck no". That they did not do that (or did, but chose to ignore it) is a terrible sign, open source or not.

Running a company by polling random employees is not an established successful management style. Its only you who is suggesting it, and then claiming that because they didn't do it, its a bad sign.

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by stevew20 on Saturday December 16, 2017 @08:56PM (#15943508)
You inserted the word "random" into the OP's statement in order to support your position. Your employees will ALWAYS have a better understanding of the state of affairs of projects they are developing, simply because they are the ones developing them. You cannot fully understand the complexities without doing the work yourself. Not factoring opinions about a product from the employees who are making it is incredibly irresponsible, and makes those employees much more likely to find an employer who will value them as subject matter experts.
Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by ksk on Sunday December 17, 2017 @01:25AM (#15944498)
>Not factoring opinions about a product from the employees who are making it is incredibly irresponsible, and makes those employees much more likely to find an employer who will value them as subject matter experts.

A developer is not a subject matter expert on how to market a product. Maybe you can restate your opinion.

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by stevew20 on Sunday December 17, 2017 @03:40AM (#15944849)
Counter to your statement, "A developer is not a subject matter expert on how to market a product":

Most development experience I have had (open source, exclusively) comes with continual interaction with, and and feedback from, a subset of users who use the software. This subset is populated mostly by power users, those who rely on the software for work, and those who use it regularly. They are the ones who understand which needs the software is meeting and which it is failing to meet, and who ask for intelligent and sensible features to be added.

The marketing departments don't have this built in compass. They create ideas that they think will be profitable to the company, and they simply don't have the necessary connection with the users and with the software to know which of these ideas will be perceived as awful by the user.

The ones creating the software are the subject matter experts on what that software should do, how it should behave, and what the users will find most useful, in this instance.

The marketers are subject matter experts on... Other stuff? Advertisements and buzzwords and increasing revenues by targeting certain demographics of peoples? I have experience with the marketing side of business that has perhaps reflected poorly on that profession, so I'd love to hear from anyone that can fill my knowledge gap.

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by OrderlyTiamat on Saturday December 16, 2017 @08:12PM (#15943316)
> Running a company by polling random employees is not an established successful management style. Its only you who is suggesting it,

He's suggesting that the most simple, stupid check one could think of (polling random employees) would already have shown this to be a terrible idea. They didn't even go that far. That is indeed a bad sign.

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by ksk on Sunday December 17, 2017 @01:36AM (#15944525)
>would already have shown this to be a terrible idea.

What are you basing this on?

I'm just a FF user, and I don't think it was a terrible idea, even though I personally wouldn't have gone that route.

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by blazedaces on Sunday December 17, 2017 @02:05AM (#15944606)
Plenty of companies conduct internal beta's. Plenty of companies conduct internal usability studies for new features or anything in their product they have the slightest worry could backfire. I mean they could have included this in the developer unpublished version for some time and just asked for general feedback before releasing it. These concepts are far from unheard of.
Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by ksk on Monday December 18, 2017 @03:42PM (#15955310)
>These concepts are far from unheard of.

Sure, and not doing any of that isn't a "terrible sign" as the OP claimed. Which is the point I'm countering.

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by jodrellblank on Sunday December 17, 2017 @01:24PM (#15946916)
Joel Test step 12 is more or less "grab random people in your hallway and see if they approve of what you're working on".

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/08/09/the-joel-test-12-s...

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by ksk on Monday December 18, 2017 @03:41PM (#15955300)
>Joel Test step 12 is more or less

That's brilliant!

"grab random people in your hallway and see if they approve of the new developer you hired" - HR

"grab random people in your hallway and see if they approve of the fan choice for the new cafeteria's HVAC system " - Building Management

"grab random people in your hallway and see if they approve of the calculations in the spreadsheets that the company CFO produced". - Finance department.

Hey, I think you're on to something here. We could eliminate entire departments here ! :)

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by jodrellblank on Tuesday December 19, 2017 @12:53AM (#15958089)
Hmm, when you remove the expensive "we should hire a management consultant to tell us to ask employees about the new dev" it almost seems laughable, like people wouldn't trust or want a kind of 'democracy' and would prefer and respect 'dictates handed down from above'.

Maybe it needs to cost $100k for someone in a suit to say "ask your employees, make use of their knowledge" before it sounds respectable?

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by ekianjo on Saturday December 16, 2017 @08:25PM (#15943375)
its not polling for running the company, its a disaster check. If most of your employees hate the idea, it should be a sign of something wrong because I would expect Mozillians to be also users of Firefox.
Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by enraged_camel on Saturday December 16, 2017 @01:52PM (#15941102)
Most open-source software companies that are profitable rely on a consulting model. They develop and open-source the software, then work with clients to implement, customize and support it for them.

This clearly wouldn’t work for a consumer product like a web browser.

Re:Firefox is on a slippery slope by Y7ZCQtNo39 on Saturday December 16, 2017 @06:41PM (#15942948)
Thank you for this reply -- it illustrates why the model that works for other companies doesn't apply here.