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Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by cybwraith on Thursday December 14, 2017 @11:23AM (#15923488)
That's not a great analogy. The store owner can't just get your arrested/charged with a crime if they don't tell you that you aren't allowed first. Http lacks such a human mechanism. The closest thing I can think of in the standard is the response code. So your server replying 200 OK should implicitly be considered permission to access that resource legally until it stops replying with that code.
Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by rayiner on Thursday December 14, 2017 @11:29AM (#15923555)
But that's exactly what happened here:

> LinkedIn sent hiQ cease and desist letters warning that any future access of its website, even the public portions, were “without permission and without authorization” and thus violations of the CFAA.

The EFF's point about terms of service is a good one, but also irrelevant. Terms of service don't provide adequate notice that someone's implied license to access a website has been terminated. But here, hiQ had actual notice through "human" channels.

Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by cmiles74 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @11:34AM (#15923619)
The poster is arguing that if you make a request from LinkedIn's website and it returns a "200" along with data, then you've accessed that data lawfully and LinkedIn has agreed to serve it to you; I tend to agree. If they don't want to provide data to hiQ, they should, well, stop providing data to hiQ.

There are many ways to do this short of claiming that hiQ doesn't have permission or authorization, an argument strikes me as wholly without merit. If the data is publicly available on the internet then how is permission or authorization required?

Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by rblatz on Thursday December 14, 2017 @12:18PM (#15924143)
How is that any different than walking up to a store entrance with automatic doors and a sign that says "Welcome" on it?
Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by cmiles74 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:44PM (#15926829)
Well, for one it's not a physical store nor a physical entrance and there is no sign that says "Welcome". I don't think the analogy is helping to make anything more clear... It's possible it's making things more confusing.

In my opinion, the bottom line is that if LinkedIn doesn't want to serve data to this company, then they should immediately cease doing so using the many well established means available to them.

For LinkedIn to claim that following a URL and downloading the data is somehow "hacking their website" is entirely ludicrous. I understand they had a lawyer tell this company that they didn't want them to visit the URL, but I don't see how that somehow turns lawful web browsing into illegal hacking.

Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by mrguyorama on Thursday December 14, 2017 @12:40PM (#15924356)
Those doors get turned off at night, just like a server can ignore an HTTP request
Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by rblatz on Thursday December 14, 2017 @01:13PM (#15924784)
They can turn the servers off at night too. Some places still choose to do that. But that is unrelated to the point, if you are told that you are no longer welcome at a business, you can’t come in without it being considered trespassing. The doors automatically opening for you (200 Ok) doesn’t matter. If you wear a disguise (change ip) doesn’t matter. You can’t go in.

Also I would agree that absent a specific order to stop accessing publiclly available server resources, there is an explicit permission to do so. So I’m the case of Weev I think he did nothing wrong, AT&T were the ones in the wrong.

Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by yorwba on Thursday December 14, 2017 @01:06PM (#15924718)
The store owner could have told you that are not welcome at any time of day. I don't think a generic "Welcome" sign or automatic door would override that.
Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by jimktrains2 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @11:35AM (#15923626)
In the coffee shop example, would this be like trying to sue someone who is banned from your shop from looking in the window at your price list? In this case, it's more like LinkedIn is attempting to get a PFA order, but I think they need to show abuse, not just looking in the window at the menu you posted on the window?
Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by rayiner on Thursday December 14, 2017 @11:37AM (#15923661)
No because that's not how computers work. Computers don't just emit radiation into the aether that anyone can capture. Accessing a website involves making a physical piece of property do something in response to your HTTP request.
Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by btown on Thursday December 14, 2017 @11:55AM (#15923911)
If you are notified in writing that you're banned from a coffee shop, but you walk up to the front door and the "server" (pun intended) greets you warmly and allows you to enter, is that "implied consent" that overrides the prior explicit anti-consent, and therefore undermines the legal authority of that ban?
Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by rayiner on Thursday December 14, 2017 @12:13PM (#15924099)
I think almost any judge or jury would find it implausible if you told them you thought the written ban didn't apply anymore because the server still let you into the coffee shop. We intuitively understand that written notice from a property owner carriers more weight than the actions of one of their workers. I think the same exact reasoning applies where the "worker" is a computer server.
Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by amyjess on Thursday December 14, 2017 @12:32PM (#15924277)
I agree with you, but I think an even better analogy would be a supermarket with automatic doors.

If someone was walked out of a supermarket and explicitly told that they were banned for life, and they tried to claim that the ban was lifted because the automatic doors opened for them, they'd be laughed out of court.

You could extend that further and say that the supermarket has a self-checkout. You may very well be able to walk through the automatic doors, grab something off the shelf, check it out yourself, and leave without anyone noticing you, but it's still trespassing if you've been banned from the store.

Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by jimktrains2 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @12:13PM (#15924100)
I actually think it would be a violation. There is a clear delineation between the private space of the coffee shop and the public space.

It becomes less clear where that delineation is not clear: a menu posted on a window or an automated phone system. These are both private things intended for at-large public consumption. My impression is that the EFF and hiq labs is taking the stance that it's a menu placed in the window, not being let in after being told you can't come in.

Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by jimktrains2 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @11:43AM (#15923741)
So, I can't shine a flashlight in your store window to look at the menu in the middle of the night? I have to send photons into your "physical piece of property do something".
Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by rayiner on Thursday December 14, 2017 @11:45AM (#15923778)
I don't think anyone who understands how computers work would compare the active process of a server responding to an HTTP request to the entirely passive phenomenon of shining light into a window and capturing the photons that bounce off.
Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by jimktrains2 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @11:54AM (#15923894)
I could just as easy say "I don't think anyone who understands how computers work would compare the active process of a server responding to an HTTP request to a coffee shop".

But to respond directly, the paper and tape had to be bought, printed, &c. Capital was expended to place the paper there. Sure there is not the ongoing cost of maintaining this paper in the window, and if that's where your argument lies, then you should be less condescending about it.

Moreover, we're not talking about the costs associated with access, we're talking about the permission granted to access. As such, ignoring the cost of serving an HTTP request is a valid comparison, because it is not at issue here. LinkedIn's argument is just as strong even if their only argument is they denied permission with no reason given.

Thanks for the ad hominem, by the way. Your childishness and inability to conduct a civil discussion has caused this discussion to end.

Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by mcguire on Thursday December 14, 2017 @11:45AM (#15923766)
But you had to take active steps to cause your physical piece of property to respond to HTTP requests...
Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by jimktrains2 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @11:49AM (#15923838)
I give the example elsewhere, can I be prohibited from shining a light onto a menu you posted in your front window in the middle of the night? I had to take the active step of turning on the flashlight and sending photons onto a "physical piece of property to" bounce off the menu.
Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by mnw21cam on Thursday December 14, 2017 @11:48AM (#15923830)
It's a bit like shouting in through the doorway "Hey, how much is your coffee?"
Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by jimktrains2 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @11:56AM (#15923924)
If you're on public property and yelling, I would assume the coffee shop owner would need a PFA or some other court order to prevent you from access. I don't think they could have you arrested because they simply asked you to not talk to them and they aren't breaking any other laws. (Though asking you not to talk to shop employees would be necessary before the PFA could be granted as I understand it.)
Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by IncRnd on Thursday December 14, 2017 @12:45PM (#15924413)
It's closer to going into the store that had sent you a C&D, then browsing the racks to create a price list.
Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by jimktrains2 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @12:52PM (#15924488)
Which they could probably get enforced. Could they prevent you from looking through the window to get prices or just the sale prices being posted in the window?
Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by IncRnd on Thursday December 14, 2017 @12:57PM (#15924569)
I'm not a lawyer, but I highly doubt that they could. It's also not what happened here.
Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by jimktrains2 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @01:05PM (#15924697)
Can you expand on the last part? I don't view a publicly accessible webpage as a protected private space, just as I do not view an ad posted in a (private) window as a protected public space.
Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by IncRnd on Thursday December 14, 2017 @01:24PM (#15924960)
Of course. My statement was predicated on the need for active network requests to obtain information. If the bot had passively listened to network traffic from LI, then I would argue for sameness with passively looking through a window.
Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by jimktrains2 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @01:47PM (#15925369)
What if it's dark and I shine a light on your ad in the window? (The issue at hand isn't DOS or resource-based, but permission.)
Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by IncRnd on Thursday December 14, 2017 @02:28PM (#15925950)
I agree with your premise. I'm just reaching a different conclusion.

As a permission issue, the bot _may_ have been authorized and authenticated, however the company was sent a C&D letter that revoked all authorizations. That is why I say that logging in and accessing the resources did not constitute authorizations.

If a C&D letter would not have been sent, I think I'd agree with you.

Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by jimktrains2 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:02PM (#15926372)
You can't prevent me from looking in your window though, at a sign you put up for people to look at none-the-less, with a C&D.
Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by IncRnd on Thursday December 14, 2017 @03:25PM (#15926618)
Agreed. That's why I made my earlier comment, that this is closer to your entering a store (not just looking in the window) and examininb the merchandise after you already had been sent away for trespassing, revoking all authorization.
Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by cybwraith on Thursday December 14, 2017 @11:44AM (#15923750)
Again:

> your server replying 200 OK should implicitly be considered permission to access that resource

I do see your point and how you could disagree with my statement above. However, if the store owner forgets you next time and says "Come on in! Oh and here is a take-home menu with all our items and prices" but then calls the police to have you removed, there is a problem.

Now imagine said store owner actually owns several locations possibly even with different public names and doesn't want to serve said customer. They could provide a list of all addresses of stores they run explicitly banning permission. Otherwise, that customer walking into store B would need to be told again they would not be served at time of entry.

Assuming the CFAA C&D from LinkedIn does have legal standing here... If hiQ were using IP addresses and not DNS resolution to crawl, how would they know a particular IP is a LinkedIn resource they aren't allowed to access? Did the C&D provide all addresses they are not permitted to access?

My point is that its not black and white, and certainly not clear that this should be covered by the CFAA under "hacking".

Edit: You could also make the argument and analogy to a restraining order which places the responsibility for compliance on the banned party. However those don't just happen because one entity sends a letter to another entity, it needs to be explicitly granted via the legal process.

Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by rayiner on Thursday December 14, 2017 @11:51AM (#15923858)
I think the more accurate comparison is that the owner sent you a C&D saying you're banned from the restaurant, and then you try to say "oh, I though the C&D didn't apply any more because the waitress let me in." Would anyone seriously believe that?

The law applies to people, not computers. The only question is: did Linked In convey its revocation of hiQ's implied license in a way a reasonable person would understand? The computer code is only relevant if a reasonable person would take the HTTP status code to take precedence over the C&D letter.

Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by ikeboy on Thursday December 14, 2017 @11:31AM (#15923573)
robots.txt.

If all requests sent by robots would clearly identify themselves, the server would easily block all of them. But if they fake their user agent to look like a browser and ignore robots.txt, that's not a good faith request and they shouldn't be able to plead ignorance.

Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by cmiles74 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @11:36AM (#15923636)
I don't believe there's a law requiring the honoring of the robots.txt file. People and services honor the file out of a sense of good manners, not a legal requirement.
Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by ikeboy on Thursday December 14, 2017 @11:39AM (#15923690)
It doesn't have to be a specific law. It is a rebuttal to a claim of "I had no idea I shouldn't have requested millions of pages from that site".

If you scrape a site that prohibits it in robots.txt, that should be considered notice that they don't want that, for whatever relevant law. (I don't know if this argument would hold up in court, IANAL.)

Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by cmiles74 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @11:57AM (#15923928)
I think I see what you're saying, but I disagree that the robots.txt file should have any legal ramifications. Web site operators have many tools that they can use to limit traffic or protect data and they should make good use of those tools.

LinkedIn wants to make their data available publicly, except under certain conditions. In my opinion, if they can't find a technical solution, they should stop making the data available publicly.

Re:Accessing Publicly Available Information on the Internet ... by jimktrains2 on Thursday December 14, 2017 @11:36AM (#15923644)
What is a robot? Why is the User Agent even important? It's not a standardized value. I could send "User-Agent: ikeboy" and it's perfectly valid.