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Re:A list of ways to “Break the Internet” for the 48 hours b... by bbatha on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @06:06PM (#15910344)
All of those things are possible consequences of repealing net neutrality.

Simply net neutrality is your ISP ignoring the contents of your packets and simply routing them to their intended destination.

Repealing net neutrality would allow ISPs to more interesting traffic shaping based on the contents of the packets, e.g. allow unlimited data caps if the user pays for the ISP for unlimited netflix.

The pros for net neutrality are that the ISPs have historically done all of the practices that you mention. And actively practice them in countries like Portugal which have no net neutrality.

The con is that some sites are much heavier bandwidth than others, and do represent a much higher cost to the ISPs. For instance I've read that netflix takes more than 50% of North American bandwidth during peak hours. Repealing net neutrality would allow ISPs to have more flexible pricing models that in theory could allow the consumer cheaper broadband by choosing different traffic shaping options. In my opinion, this is unrealistic because ISPs are a natural monopoly in most places and thus the incentive is to skew pricing for what costs their routing infrastructure the least rather than be competitive with other ISPs.

Re:A list of ways to “Break the Internet” for the 48 hours b... by mehrdadn on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @06:12PM (#15910389)
> Simply net neutrality is your ISP ignoring the contents of your packets and simply routing them to their intended destination.

That doesn't make sense. ISPs have long blocked "dangerous" or "premium" ports, like 445 (SMB) or 25 (SMTP). Those are parts of the contents of your internet packets and yet even the net neutrality regulation didn't prohibit doing that. And you can't argue those are "headers" rather than "contents" because then throttling packets based on IP addresses would not require looking at packet contents. So I think your definition is incorrect?

Re:A list of ways to “Break the Internet” for the 48 hours b... by tpxl on Wednesday December 13, 2017 @06:53AM (#15913659)
Ports are destinations really, not contents.

They can block mail from everyone, or they can allow it for everyone, but they cannot block or throttle a single provider.

Re:A list of ways to “Break the Internet” for the 48 hours b... by wickawic on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @07:45PM (#15910986)
What people do and what is legislated are two different things. The point is that with a law on the books you can fight about your SMTP connection being closed, but without the law then there is no framework to even complain.
Re:A list of ways to “Break the Internet” for the 48 hours b... by mehrdadn on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @07:54PM (#15911033)
> What people do and what is legislated are two different things. The point is that with a law on the books you can fight about your SMTP connection being closed, but without the law then there is no framework to even complain.

That seems orthogonal to my comment. I was responding to the parent comment on what net neutrality even is, not trying to debate its merits.

Re:A list of ways to “Break the Internet” for the 48 hours b... by openasocket on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @06:20PM (#15910447)
I was right with you until you brought up Netflix. I'm unclear on why Netflix being a big source of traffic is a problem. It's not like people are having trouble accessing Netflix now. And Netflix makes extensive use of CDNs and co-locates caching servers in the ISPs' own data centers, so it's not like the fact that everyone's using Netflix is really burdening the ISP.
Re:A list of ways to “Break the Internet” for the 48 hours b... by sliverstorm on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @06:47PM (#15910641)
The ISP's feel like, burden or not, since Netflix represents more of the traffic they should pay more of the infrastructure cost. Many people fear that if Net Neutrality is repealed, the ISP's will have a giant lever (in the form of levying fees on customers for accessing Netflix) to squeeze Netflix to get them to cough up more cash.

It's an old & interesting debate about how data service ought to be billed. If 26 customers pay for 50MB/s service, most use 2MB/s, one uses 50MB/s, and the uplink is sparsely provisioned at 100MB/s, what is fair? One customer is using half the capacity of the link but only paying 1/26th of the costs, while the others are using 1/50th of the capacity and paying 1/26th the cost. Many might argue the one customer should be paying more.

Re:A list of ways to “Break the Internet” for the 48 hours b... by openasocket on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @06:55PM (#15910691)
That's an argument for billing customers based on bytes of traffic (as opposed to a flat monthly rate) which does not violate Net Neutrality.
Re:A list of ways to “Break the Internet” for the 48 hours b... by sliverstorm on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @11:20PM (#15912005)
Yes, although bytes-based billing runs counter to the provider-side convention of peering.
Re:A list of ways to “Break the Internet” for the 48 hours b... by gknoy on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @06:35PM (#15910575)
Do you want your ISP to charge you extra for the "privilege" of being able to get access to Netflix ("Streaming media package!"), or Twitch ("Esports!"), __in addition__ to any subscriptions you would already pay to Netflix?
Re:A list of ways to “Break the Internet” for the 48 hours b... by openasocket on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @06:42PM (#15910605)
You're misunderstanding me. My point is that a common anti-NN argument is "but Netflix generates so much traffic..." and I'm saying that argument is without merit.
Re:A list of ways to “Break the Internet” for the 48 hours b... by lurr on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @07:38PM (#15910939)
The argument that video streaming results in tremendously one way traffic, making peering agreements unfair, seems worth considering.
Re:A list of ways to “Break the Internet” for the 48 hours b... by openasocket on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @07:49PM (#15911010)
I don't understand how traffic directionality affects peering. The path of routers between the client and the server handle all packets. The fact that the source is mostly from one size doesn't affect the load on the routers, they're still handling the same number of packets whether the traffic is symmetric or not.
Re:A list of ways to “Break the Internet” for the 48 hours b... by Dylan16807 on Wednesday December 13, 2017 @03:17AM (#15912838)
Unfair to Netflix.

They could send back a whole bunch of zero bytes to make the traffic symmetrical. They save everyone's resources by not doing that, yet somehow that means they should be charged...

The direction of the traffic is meaningless. What matters is the endpoint of the connection. ISPs should be happy to peer with anyone for traffic that has their users as an endpoint.

Re:A list of ways to “Break the Internet” for the 48 hours b... by vilmosi on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @06:21PM (#15910455)
Portugal has NN...
Re:A list of ways to “Break the Internet” for the 48 hours b... by SilasX on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @06:14PM (#15910401)
>Simply net neutrality is your ISP ignoring the contents of your packets and simply routing them to their intended destination.

So then, concretely: say I have an expensive, faster link in my network. I don't look inside the packets, but I allow them to specify some flag in the header that indicates they want to use the fast link (and I keep track of which peer is requesting it to compare to how many such usages they've paid for).

Is that a NN violation? Is that harmful to the internet? Do current or proposed regulations allow it?

Re:A list of ways to “Break the Internet” for the 48 hours b... by openasocket on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @06:30PM (#15910535)
If the ISP customer is able to specify which link to use and be charged accordingly, that's not necessarily a violation of the spirit of net neutrality. If a bad ISP implemented this and made the slow path absurdly slow, well then you just always use the fast link and it's the equivalent of the ISP just charging you more. It's not harmful to the Internet, and I believe current regulations allow it.

If the server the customer is connecting to is able to specify which link to use and the server pays the bill for that usage, that's a different matter. If a bad ISP implemented this and made the slow path absurdly slow, servers would be forced to use the fast link in order to access the ISPs' customers, and now the ISP is forcing Netflix et. al. to fork over money just to be able to access their customers. That will hurt the Internet, and current regulations do not allow it.

Re:A list of ways to “Break the Internet” for the 48 hours b... by lurr on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @07:36PM (#15910932)
I'm actually not sure I buy this now.

Lets say I'm an ISP and I build out 2 networks. 1 is 10 times faster than the other. Both end up at the same place and then go out to users.

If I offer companies the option of paying more for the faster network, why is that a problem?

In your scenario it certainly seems reasonable that I should be able to just switch off the slower network, and keep the new prices under the argument that I put in significant amounts of money to upgrade.

Re:A list of ways to “Break the Internet” for the 48 hours b... by openasocket on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @07:42PM (#15910973)
> Lets say I'm an ISP and I build out 2 networks. 1 is 10 times faster than the other. Both end up at the same place and then go out to users.

> If I offer companies the option of paying more for the faster network, why is that a problem?

If the company in question is a customer of the ISP, there is no problem. The problem I mentioned was when you, as a company, have to pay money not just to your own ISP, but to your customer's ISP, just to give them their data.

Re:A list of ways to “Break the Internet” for the 48 hours b... by MAGZine on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @06:21PM (#15910457)
Yes, because it means treating packets different based on their contents. In this case, the contents are some header flag.

Is it harmful to the internet? Yes, because it promotes winners and losers. Not just from the consumer perspective. Maybe corporations can pay to have faster downlink to your customers using the same technology.

Current regulations do not allow it. Or, at the minimum, it's a grey area.

You might have seen your argument branded as an "internet fast lane," which I'd suspect would be so much of a fast lane as a slow lane for everyone else.

Re:A list of ways to “Break the Internet” for the 48 hours b... by SilasX on Tuesday December 12, 2017 @07:05PM (#15910751)
How is that any different from allowing someone to pay more to use more of a plane (e.g. first class seats)? Is this just a general argument that everyone should pay the same and get the same?
Re:A list of ways to “Break the Internet” for the 48 hours b... by icebraining on Wednesday December 13, 2017 @08:05AM (#15913949)
The analogy of the planes is not very helpful, because each flight is paid for individually. The idea is that traffic to certain peers (not the ISP customers, but whoever they are communicating with) should not be discriminated against. So you can pay for faster service, but all packets coming from or to you would get flagged, not just those going to certain servers.