Your anecdote was so great to read. It's funny, my therapist related almost the exact same anecdote. It was about a mother he saw once whose child was screaming for ice cream. The mother just kneeled down, smiled and said, "You can't have any ice cream. But it's OK to want it, and it's OK to be angry that you're not getting it," and she let the child scream until she was done.

The point of my therapist's anecdote, and implicit in what you wrote as well, is that the tantrum isn't shameful or "wrong," it just is. You made it clear that it's not an acceptable way to get something from you but you neither condoned nor condemned the emotional reaction itself. I think the part that TCS gets "right" is that there's no need to shame an emotional reaction. I personally try to treat everyone in my life, adult or child, according to this principle.

I think the dangerous part of what I read in this article is that we shouldn't establish boundaries. Establishing a boundary, like telling a child that she won't get ice cream, is critical, not just for children but for adults. You can furthermore make consequences clear from the beginning so that if you need to "punish," really you're just enforcing the boundary. I think that's really healthy for all of us, children included. It provides stability and rationality, and it shows that you can treat people while respecting your own needs without resorting to anger and shame.

I'm not a parent yet, but I hopefully when I become one I'll be able to deal with such situations with the grace and compassion that you had! Thanks for sharing.

> is that the tantrum isn't shameful or "wrong," it just is.

Wait.. it is wrong. If we don't get something that we want, we don't throw a tantrum. Yes, it is an emotional reaction, and it's one that isn't acceptable.

I'm not a perfect parent, but IMO if I were in GP's shoes, I'd leave immediately. Throwing a tantrum is not acceptable, and the consequence has to be immediate and clear. That's my boundary.

I see it differently. A Zoo is a safe place for parenting and learning. If you feel disrespected by mere glancing on a child having a temper tantrum in a Zoo, then you and I simply aren't going to agree on much. I'm certainly not going to escalate a situation with my daughter to physical confrontation so that you might feel more comfortable.

Based on what you wrote, you're almost certainly a great parent, but I have a question:

If your daughter learned by observing the boy using a tantrum to get his way, couldn't there be other children who observed both the boy and your daughter, see that a tantrum at the very worst amounts to a 50% chance of ice cream and a 50% chance of continuing the zoo trip?

If you had told her: "When you're done, let me know. And if this goes on much longer we're going home once you're done." The other children may have observed possible negative consequences for their actions.

Thanks for the complement. To answer the question, I try not to escalate the situation or change the message while adrenaline is high.

That said, after the tantrum was over and the crowd had dispersed, my daughter and I stayed and discussed the situation (and consequences). One mother and her 3 year old boy lingered, eventually joining in. Her young boy was very assured that he would never, ever have such a tantrum like that! I told him I was so relieved, especially because of hidden dangers like stinky horse urine puddles.

I think that is great! Thanks for the reply, I hope I remember this message if I ever have children.

There's two parts here: a.) What would I do, as the parent, if my child were to throw a tantrum, and b.) How would I react, as a parent, to another child throwing a tantrum.

For A: As stated, I would leave immediately. I'll hedge that a bit and say that getting to the point where a child is rolling around on the ground is a failure for everyone concerned, so ideally we'd never reach this point in the first place. If there's a disagreement, my kids and I can talk it out without resorting to a tantrum.

For B: I don't care what you do with your kids. In public at a zoo in an open area, have at it. It's a tough situation all around and I'm not going to make another parent's day worse by saying anything.

Thanks for the response.

When you say "I would leave immediately", you do mean that you would physically intervene to remove your child, correct? Doing this at 2 years is pretty easy; you can just pick them up and leave. How do you do it at 6 years (50 lbs, 42")? Do you try at 10 years? How do you "leave immediately" with an older child if they physically resist?

If you transition from physical to physiological intervention at a later year, what sort of practice will you and your children have had will make this likely to succeed? If you could make that transition (away from physical manipulation) earlier, is there a reason to wait?

> When you say "I would leave immediately", you do mean that you would physically intervene to remove your child, correct? Doing this at 2 years is pretty easy; you can just pick them up and leave. How do you do it at 6 years (50 lbs, 42")? Do you try at 10 years? How do you "leave immediately" with an older child if they physically resist?

This is tougher, and really I can only offer my own experience and thoughts. For context, I have a 9yo and a 18yo. I don't actually recall needing to intervene with any of them engaging in full-on temper tantrum mode. At their worst, usually pulling them aside, explaining their behaviour is not appropriate, and staying with them with the idea that when they're ready to behave correctly we can resume whatever it was we're doing is enough. Often it would be something that we could talk about together and reflect on their feelings. Depending on their age, if they're very young it's the kind of thing that can happen, and maybe some time out together is enough. If they get older and are still having this kind of behaviour then maybe you do need to leave for the day.

My youngest will often talk to me at bedtime about how she felt about certain things that happened that day. For example, if she yelled at me that day I'll bring it up and we can talk about how she felt, how that made me feel, and how to deal with it in the future. More commonly it's about something that happened at school that day.

> If you transition from physical to physiological intervention at a later year, what sort of practice will you and your children have had will make this likely to succeed? If you could make that transition (away from physical manipulation) earlier, is there a reason to wait?

IMO (and I'm just a random person with no training, so don't take this as actual advice), parenting succeeds when expectations are clear, consequences are not arbitrary and promises are kept. If you say X is going to happen when they do Y, then you better follow through. Whether X is a punishment or a reward, it doesn't matter. Trust is what probably makes it easier to transition to you using words to de-escalate situations. At a very young age children just can't remember or understand your reaction to their behaviour, and it takes time for them to learn that.

All that said, it's been awhile since I've needed to deal with children throwing a temper tantrum, so I've probably left a lot out. All I can say is that at my kids' age today I don't need to deal with this problem. Sure, sometimes they're disappointed at not getting what they want. We can talk about it and if they feel they're not being treated fairly we can usually come to some sort of compromise.

As a parent I strongly agree with you. A tantrum indicates lack of emotional control and a lack of respect for other people in the area, both from the child and the parent.

It's OK to be angry. It's not OK to let that anger take over physically once a child has more emotional maturity than a baby.

For those who permit their children to behave like that, what will be the cut-off age when they have to stop? 12, 16, 18? Or 32 and throwing a tantrum in a workplace?

If it was actual lack of emotional control, then imposing a penalty wouldn't work, since that implies they do have control over it. I doubt tantrums really are anger taking over, they're just an attempt at emotional manipulation of others, and they persist only if they get a positive response.

Some kids do lose emotional control - a close (minor) family member had that problem, probably due to difficult childhood moments - but in that case they need help in handling it, not punishment.

These are just my personal views; I'm certainly not an expert.

> If it was actual lack of emotional control, then imposing a penalty wouldn't work, since that implies they do have control over it.

The point is that children need to LEARN to control themselves, emotional or otherwise.

I think she might mean it's not wrong in the sense of "deeply immoral." Murderer is wrong. Physical abuse is wrong. Many things are deeply and intrinsically immoral. Tantrums aren't. They're unacceptable but they aren't immoral. At least not before a certain age.

I think that we may be talking past each other.

I'm distinguishing between something being "wrong" vs. something being "acceptable." Wrongness to me is a moral attribute; whether something is acceptable is a purely subjective and individual quality. Maybe the tantrum is unacceptable to us and to nearly every other adult in human society, but it's still subjective. I think that parents absolutely should show with their actions and words whether something is acceptable _to them_ and give advice about what will be acceptable to others (they will learn soon enough anyway). That's what GP did by showing that throwing a tantrum was an unacceptable way to get ice cream.

The key part is that he didn't then go on to say/communicate "and what you're doing is wrong and you should be ashamed of yourself," or something to that effect. The exact words don't matter, kids internalize shame very easily: if you think it's wrong or shameful, then they will get the point. It will be effective at preventing the behavior in the future, but damn, shame is like the nuclear option in my opinion when it comes to parenting. Obviously there's a healthy amount of shame that we should all have for things that are genuinely shameful. But is there really anything shameful or wrong about a lack of emotional control? The child is a child, they don't know any better.

So the question is what is unacceptable? I would argue that the tantrum itself is totally acceptable, assuming (as GP has said in follow-up comments) that it's a safe space for the child and the parent has the capacity in that moment to hold emotional space for the child. I would even argue that although the tantrum is obnoxious, the part of the tantrum where the parent says "yes, it's good to express and vent your anger"--even more so for a girl in a world where girls are told not to show anger--is downright healthy. The part that's totally unacceptable, in my opinion, is the idea that the anger will get her the ice cream. But if you say "not only will you not get this ice cream, but also you're not allowed to throw a tantrum ever because it's wrong," that kid will more likely than not internalize a certain amount of shame for her actions, and next time she wants to express anger she will feel ashamed about it. Which sucks, because that stuff, built up over time, will stick with you well into adulthood. Hence the therapist :-).

Thank you for sharing this. As a father, other parents are my greatest fear. Right now we live in Japan, and I gotta say the way preschoolers are treated here I'm really quite comfortable with (generally relaxed, but calm/sometimes stern talking-to, leaving other parents space, also tons and tons of infrastructure that helps, no helicoptering). I'm really quite concerned about moving back to Europe - while I like the schooling system there better, the helicopter-parenting scares me. My hope is that German-speaking / Swiss culture is still the way I remember, with lots of self-responsibility given at young age, but some stories I hear make me worried.

I'm in Zurich atm and saw plenty of 8-10 yr old kids runnig around Sunday morning alone, playing soccer or riding tram. The place seems still all right.

Good to know, thanks. I will actively avoid living in places (like AFAIK most of US/UK), where this isn't completely normal. In Switzerland, children are sent alone to (and prepared for) Kindergarden at age 6 - I hope that we'll be able to do that as well once my 2yo is at that age.

> "well, daddy, one other boy just had one and he got the ice cream, so I wanted to see if that would work"

Pretty advanced for a 2 year old.

With 2 year olds in general, and any discipline advice: YMMV for everyone because they are very unpredictable at that age.

Any "I did this with my 2 yr old" and "I got this result" causality should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I can assure you that young children are way smarter that most give them credit. They can pattern match pretty quickly.

> "I wanted to see if that would work"

This seems advanced to me. Of course this could be a stock phrase copied from an adult. My 2 year old does this a lot and it makes her sound grown up. As an adult I use confirmation bias to say "yup she's smart".

2-year-olds are definitely capable of this kind of thinking. The ability to explain it and introspect is more rare.

Yes, she is precocious. The story I presented was a story; I explained to the best of my recollection what happened so that it may be used at a data point. Every situation is different and if the story helps someone, that is fantastic.

I'm more interested in how observers could be more helpful in these situations. When I see children out of control and an overwhelmed parent, I will sometimes try to help by de-escalating. In fact, I'm coming to think that we should learn as a culture how to talk to other people's children directly in a way that grows community and mutual respect. Children will often listen more intently to another parent (or, even better, especially a slightly older child).

I am very firmly in your camp on how to handle that. I’ve watched my daughter do this so many times even at 20 months. Each time I hang out nearby, I will typically talk calmly to her but I will not attempt to soothe the wild beast. Sure enough, she tires of it pretty quickly, gets up, and is right back to her happy self every time.

Thanks for this story. I like to think I would do better than some of those other parents... (At least, father to father, I wouldn't challenge your capability by asking about mommy!) I'll do my best to keep this story in mind in the future.

It seems to me, reading this from your perspective, is that the correct attempt at intervention would simply be asking, "Is everything OK?" And after hearing it's a temper tantrum, a hearty "good luck" before walking off!

I also could care less about other parents.. But my daughter would not stop after 1 or 2 minutes. Even after 20. I tried it many times. Distractions mostly do not work neither as she was quite smart early enough :)

Not every single child is the same. Some need more powerful nudge towards behaving while others can sit in the carryon for 2 hours at movie theatre totally awake and not enjoying grown-up movie..

That sounds really tough. Yep, children like all people are all a bit different. I wish you luck and hope you find what works for you.

What happens if you just walk away? Will she continue? My kids will stop when they notice I'm not there.

i would expect it to differ based on environment and trigger, but most likely she will just run after me without changing much of behavior :) I love the fact my both kids are persistent. I just need to get through their childhood and direct their powers to good beginnings :)

With that attitude I’m sure you will succeed. Best of luck to you and your family.

I would have done it just slightly different -- picked the child up and held her in silence through the tantrum, even still sitting on the ground. That way, she can feel you there (in case it were a real melt-down -- say from fever or overstimulation, not something calculated), not get bruised, keep out of horse urine, and show other parents that you're not quite that cold. You were right to be absolutely boring and unimpressed. Two is probably a little young to understand "extreme waste of time."

Yea, that’s not going to work with all children. Mine would just get more agitated from this. For me calm down time comes later and starts with “hug?” and they come to you for resolution.

I'll second comstock's reply that this won't work for all kids. Picking my 2-year old up mid-tantrum would just make him try to fling himself backward out of my arms and potentially get hurt from falling.

I wouldn't even have waited. I will just walk away myself, the kid will follow and if he/she doesn't I will observe from a distance.

Question: how do you handle other types of bad behavior, like when your kids are running around in a tightly packed shop?

Went as a volunteer to a camp for kids with ADHD and Aspagers. Tantrums are unavoidable. We had drafted a contract with the kids that lines out rules of conduct for pretty much everything, ie. swearing == 10 push-ups or squats, any attention seeking behavior had to be diffused with holding and counting down from ten. It was ranging from a symbolic hand holding up to a full ground tackle if the situation was going a bit overboard.

IMHO you acted the best way you could. I've seen to many kids traumatized by a lack of a framework that would allow them to think about consequences. The key is communication and respect for the rules from both sides.

I was about to ask "which age are those suggestions for".

We cannot expect a 24 months old to understand all our explanations. Sure, we DO explain things, but sometimes a rule it's just a rule, and an outburst is just an outburst.

I agree with the article in that, when they grow up, we should prefer explanations over rules, while we parents may tend to "keep enforcing arbitrary rules" forever.

But why didn’t you give her the ice cream in the first place? Perhaps, because of a rule? Perhaps that rule was not so bad after all?