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Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by djrogers on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @04:52PM (#15802174)
If even 10% of the battery 'breakthroughs' we've seen on these pages in the past 5 years had come to fruition, we'd have 20Kw batteries that charge in 10 minutes on our phones. Oh, and they'd be 100% recyclable but that wouldn't matter because they'd last for 100k cycles.
Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by jacquesm on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @05:17PM (#15802393)
It's the exact same thing with solar panel technologies. But then if you look at the long term, 10 or 20 years, you see that there really is an underlying current (...) of steady improvements that eventually make it to the market or that reduce cost. But the vast majority are hype.
Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by mark-r on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @05:45PM (#15802618)
"We always overestimate the change that will occur in the next two years and underestimate the change that will occur in the next ten." - Bill Gates
Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by njarboe on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @07:15PM (#15803325)
Most humans seem to understand linear growth pretty well. It is hard to get an intuitive feel for exponential growth.
Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by wickawic on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @08:02PM (#15803569)
"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function.”

- Al Bartlett

Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by lovemenot on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @09:18PM (#15803969)
That was a powerful observation in 1999 when he said it: thousands of times more so now.
Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by marblar on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @12:29AM (#15804802)
At this rate, in 2025 it will be at least 10 times more powerful.
Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by SomeStupidPoint on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @08:37PM (#15803718)
It's because we think in 3D, so we only really see three steps of exponential growth.

If we thought in 100D, we might have a better sense for it, because we'd be able to see a hundred of them.

Hypervolume grows exponentially.

One way to get a really rough idea is to try and control each and every joint individually.

Close your eyes and try to imagine that each joint, each muscle is a dimension along which you can move (by moving it), and your posture at any given moment is a point in that space. When you move, you make a line through it. Don't picture it, just feel it.

What is the shape of that space?

You can get an idea of what exponential growth is like by exploring how the shape of that space changes as you add more and more things you're controlling.

Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by baddox on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @10:51PM (#15804428)
Doesn’t hypervolume just grow geometrically as dimension?
Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by zmgehlke on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @11:12PM (#15804516)
Are those not the same thing?

> ... In the case of a discrete domain of definition with equal intervals, it is also called geometric growth or geometric decay, the function values forming a geometric progression. ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponential_growth

Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by stefco_ on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @01:35AM (#15805067)
That is growing exponentially with number of dimensions. The earlier post assumed fixed but large number of dimensions and varying linear size, so that would just be a power law.
Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by SomeStupidPoint on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @01:53AM (#15805124)
> It's because we think in 3D, so we only really see three steps of exponential growth.

> If we thought in 100D, we might have a better sense for it, because we'd be able to see a hundred of them.

This is pretty clearly talking about getting a better sense of the asymptotic behavior in number of dimensions, and having a better intuition if you see a hundred steps than if you see three. The three steps of exponential growth mentioned are in transitioning from a single cube, to a line of 10 cubes, to a grid of 10x10 cubes, to a block of 10x10x10 cubes. But that's sort of where we tap out, because we're so heavily wired for 3D -- if we dealt with 100D, we'd have 100 such steps we could intuitively observe, and so have a better sense of asymptotics.

This is further seen in that the exercise is based on increasing the number of dimensions to explore the growth of the space as the dimensionality changes. It's literally adding more and more terms to a product space, and so clearly dealing with issues about dimensionality.

You're simply wrong, and incredibly uncharitable in your interpretation.

Further, geometric growth isn't a power law -- it's exponential growth. So the person asking the question was indeed confused, regardless of the fact you're wrong about what I was talking about. Geometric series are r^1, ^2, r^3, etc while a power law will look like 1^x, 2^x, 3^x, etc. Asking if an exponential growth is "just geometric growth" is being confused -- they're the same thing.

Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by baddox on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @03:35AM (#15805488)
Oh oops, you’re totally correct that geometric growth is a synonym for exponential growth. I don’t know what I was thinking, but I may have been confused by the fact that volume grows polynomially faster than surface area for any fixed n dimensions (I now fear I may also be incorrect about this claim, although I’m confident it’s true for n=3).

Still, geometric growth is exponential in n when n is the number of dimensions, which isn’t really the n we were talking about in this context.

Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by SomeStupidPoint on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @08:47AM (#15806680)
It's precisely the N that I was talking about:

I discuss how seeing 100 steps of a sequence with regular behavior gives you a better sense of its asymptotics than seeing 3 steps, and then how you can generate some steps of that sequence as a mental model.

The N that is changing is the number of dimensions, both in comparing which model gives better asymptotic intuition and in terms of constructing a phase space by adding a dimension at a time.

I'm actually unsure how you could think there's an N that's not dimension, given that the only values discussed (or changing) were dimensions.

Did I not use fancy enough language when making a point to laymen, so you assumed you knew more than me and took a really uncharitable read so you could "correct" me?

Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by p1esk on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @11:56AM (#15808377)
When you say “volume grows” most people assume an increase in 3D volume. If you meant something else, like growth with number of dimensions, then you should’ve clarified it better. I think that’s why you are being downvoted despite the insightfulness of your comment.
Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by SomeStupidPoint on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @05:23PM (#15811455)
It's actual a real problem with people who are moderately good at math:

They sabotage explanations to laypeople by incorrectly nitpicking technical details because they hear informal language that sounds similar to something they know, and rush to regurgitate that fact as a "correction" without really understanding the conversation -- and will insist on doing so unless you use language too sophisticated for the audience you were trying to reach in the first place.

This actually happens with nearly every field, I just experience it most with math -- it's probably related to Dunning Kreuger or whatever.

C'est la vie.

Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by flatfilefan on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @09:05PM (#15803870)
An interesting way to look at human thinking patterns. Is there any book on it?

I never completely figured out Aikido with it’s joint locks and levers. Maybe talented aikidokas have a grater capacity to visualize/fill this type of activity?

Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by Pamar on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @02:05AM (#15805169)
(Aikido SanDan, ~28 years of practice, still going to the dojo 3 times a week).

Interesting point, but I don’t think Aikidoka have any special talent for that: we use a small number of techniques and what changes is the way you use them in response to different attacks/holds.

Also, you tend to work on your specific Ryu (school) technicsl curriculum and nobody goes around “inventing” new locks.

(Some argue that Aikido is not really adapting to modern world nor cross-pollinating with other martial arts due to -arguably excessive - reverence for tradition).

Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by SomeStupidPoint on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @09:22PM (#15803992)
Honestly, it's just a mash-up of a few Buddhist ideas and a few math ideas:

You can model what you're doing as a phase space, which is the product space of the state of each thing you control. This generally has a lot more dimensions than three. (You see this in robotics; a 5-axis CNC has a 5 dimensional phase space for position (5 axes of motion), plus a few more dimensions for things like speed and coolant flow.)

That mashed up with the meditation idea of starting with your focus on something really small -- the soles of your feet, for instance -- and drawing it up your body until you can feel all of it.

If you do the two, you can slowly draw yourself into awareness of higher and higher dimensional phase spaces, which shows you a curve of exponential growth.

Well, okay -- I also followed Terry Tao's excellent advice on dealing with higher dimensions, to stop trying to picture math and start trying to find systems that expressed it in what they did. You can often get a feel for a system doing something more complex than what you can directly picture.

Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by philipkglass on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @07:29PM (#15803402)
There can also be a very long lag between initial research and industrialization. PERC cell technology for high efficiency solar has been growing rapidly to multiple gigawatts of manufacturing capacity over the past couple of years. It's expected to account for over half of all monocrystalline cell manufacturing within the next few years.

10 years ago PERC cells weren't available on an industrial scale, even though the technological basics were discovered, explored at the lab scale, and published in the 1980s. It took a lot of manufacturing advances and market evolution before PERC technology was both practical and profitable to manufacture for large scale use.

http://www.aleo-solar.com/perc-cell-technology-explained/

Likewise, I expect that some battery ideas that are published and "go nowhere" will eventually reach industrial scale, but only much later.

Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by BurningFrog on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @10:57PM (#15804450)
Part of it is that even if 100% of them come to fruition, it takes a few years at least for the tech to be in batteries you carry around.

We have been spoiled by the web to expect a whole other time scale, but physical technology still takes the time it has to take.

My - not very informed - impression is that battery technology actually is moving very fast, considering the timescale constraints.

Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by userbinator on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @08:41PM (#15803733)
but that wouldn't matter because they'd last for 100k cycles.

That's precisely the sort of thing that most manufacturers don't want, because a battery designed to last effectively forever means less recurring revenue on replacements.

"100% recyclable" is good for them (and "biodegradable" even better), because they can act "green" while continuously making products that don't last and have to be recycled, expending even more energy and creating profit in the process. "The best kind of planned obolescence is environmentally friendly planned obolescence."

Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by aphextron on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @10:09PM (#15804225)
>That's precisely the sort of thing that most manufacturers don't want, because a battery designed to last effectively forever means less recurring revenue on replacements.

That's ridiculous, tinfoil hat thinking. Longer cycle life = cheaper battery = higher profit + happier consumer.

Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by mark-r on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @11:23PM (#15804560)
In an ideal world with infinite competition and perfect knowledge about competing products, perhaps you'd be right. But in the real world where we live, it happens all the time.

Start by reading about the Phoebus cartel: https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/dawn-of-electronics/t...

I remember my first electric razor. It failed after a couple of years, so I took it apart to find out why. I discovered that the electrical contacts to the motor were just little pieces of graphite, and when they wore down to nothing the razor was finished. Definitely planned obsolescence in action!

Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by kqr on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @12:26AM (#15804788)
Are you saying there are reasonably priced long-lasting equivalents to graphite brushes? I'm asking out of ignorance. Because that would be really good to know when buying any appliance that has a rotating part. My impression is that they all use graphite brushes.
Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by userbinator on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @07:57AM (#15806394)
Large appliances like washers and dryers use brushless motors, although the newer ones are likely to be inverter/VFD-based instead of the older induction type, where the control electronics will fail long before the motor itself wears out (bearings etc.)

(Search YouTube for "vintage induction motor" and you'll find plenty of century-old(!) examples still in good running condition. I don't think the same can be said of the brushless motors today.)

Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by mark-r on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @12:30AM (#15804807)
There must be, certainly there are no graphite brushes in your spinning hard disk. That might not have been a common motor design back when I had that razor though, but they certainly could have used a beefier piece of graphite.
Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by clort on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @01:50AM (#15805115)
hard disks have brushless motors

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_DC_electric_motor
they are usually more expensive but have been around for a long time.

AFAIK there is no substitute for graphite in a brushed motor, it is needing to transfer power to different sections of a rotating part in turn and does so by rubbing over a set of copper strips. That the graphite is soft is why it works well but also why it wears out rather than the commutator, which will survive several sets of brushes.

Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by stretchwithme on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @01:31AM (#15805050)
I agree. You can charge more for products that never wear out and outsell your competitors. If you're cornering the market, you don't care if it shrinks a bit.
Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by mplewis on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @09:29PM (#15804028)
I'm not so sure. If Apple came out tomorrow and said "no more battery swaps, ever," they'd have a consumer advantage over Samsung and Google phones.
Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by baddox on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @10:54PM (#15804436)
That’s probably true for smartphones, which would still have other significant improvements every year or so (like displays, performance, and networking) to incentivize owners to upgrade.
Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by jp555 on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @09:29PM (#15804027)
You mean if journalist’s versions of research come to fuition?

Those breakthroughs, when applied to scaled up battery manufacturing give us the 5%-10% compounding annual improvement we see. A doubling at least every 15 years is pretty good!

Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by make3 on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @08:05PM (#15803579)
Well at least it's not a Wired article, so the chances are much better
Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by ngold on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @06:53PM (#15803208)
And you would be able to stab and cut them without exploding. The tech exists but I would imagine patents are doing their magic lawyering.
Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by fmihaila on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @07:21PM (#15803354)
If the absence of vastly superior batteries were only due to patents, someone would be producing them right now and enjoy the exclusivity. While there are numerous promising approaches, usually announced with great fanfare, they tend to only work in the lab. The hard step is scaling them up to mass production such that the economics make sense.
Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by madengr on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @10:37PM (#15804349)
Yep, solar cells are similar. So many 20% efficiency increases, they should be at 200% by now.
Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by icebraining on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @03:02AM (#15805368)
If every year you lose 20% of your money, how long does it take until you're in the negative?
Re:Samsung Develops Battery Material with 5x Faster Charging... by madengr on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @10:24PM (#15813215)
If you have a solar cell that starts with 20% efficiency, how many years of “20% increase claims” does it take to reach 200% ?