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Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by legohead on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @02:32AM (#15755013)
Rodent research is a horrible testing method. This video explains it well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHl0nIdbiLA
Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by nezzle on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @03:03AM (#15755128)
Yes, it's terrible. Make sure none of the following list apply to you or anyone you care for.

>If you’ve ever taken antibiotics, had a vaccine, a blood transfusion, dialysis, an organ transplant, chemotherapy, bypass surgery or joint replacement, you have benefited from animal testing and research. In fact, practically every drug, treatment, medical device, diagnostic tool or cure we have today was developed with the help of lab animals.

>Many diseases that once killed millions of people every year are now either preventable, treatable or have been eradicated altogether. Immunizations against polio, diphtheria, mumps, rubella and hepatitis save countless lives and the survival rates for many major diseases are at an all-time high thanks to the discovery of new drugs and the design of sophisticated medical devices and surgical procedures.

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by carussell on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @09:10AM (#15756857)
You seem to have responded to the parent comment as if he or she was making an appeal on the grounds of ethics of animal testing. (And for some reason, people have engaged with you on this, as if that's what's going on.)

But the linked video isn't about that at all. It's about the pitfalls of using rodents for testing and trying to extrapolate meaningful conclusions from the results. In other words, an argument that is squarely on topic with regard to the original article. Or in other words further, that using rodents is "a horrible testing method"―to repeat what the original commenter wrote before you derailed the thread.

Your commenting as if this discussion is about the ethics of animal testing and the comments of you and those who've responded (including the one I'm writing now!) have been—and are contributing further—to a massive waste of effort and attention.

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by buu700 on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @04:58AM (#15755631)
I don't buy the argument/implication that it's somehow hypocritical to oppose something while actively benefiting from it, as long as one is upfront about that fact.

For example, say that we have genuinely useful medical information as a result of Unit 731 experiments and similar crimes (which may or may not be the case; I have no idea). There's no contradiction if one person supports using those existing results to save lives while simultaneously opposing further collection of such results.

Another example: I personally eat a lot of meat (keto/LCHF), but even so I might support legislation to ban killing animals for food or sport, because the personal sacrifice would only be worth it to me if it came attached to a systemic change.

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by rkangel on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @05:54AM (#15755878)
> because the personal sacrifice would only be worth it to me if it came attached to a systemic change

This is the reason why. You may prefer the world to be a certain way, but you aren't willing to make any sacrifice to make it be a particular way, so it appears that you don't actually care about an opinion that you are espousing.

People who don't eat meat have a net effect on a reduced demand for meat, reducing the amount of cattle. Becoming a vegetarian doesn't stop everyone eating meat, but it helps.

[I'm not a vegetarian but I have some respect for people who are willing to stand by their beliefs]

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by mattmcknight on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @08:51AM (#15756732)
Demand for meat is elastic. If vegetarians don't eat it the price goes down, so people can afford it more often, so the number of cattle doesn't necessarily drop.
Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by buu700 on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @10:00AM (#15757200)
It would be hypocritical if I were to hide that I eat meat and admonish others for doing so, but neither of those are the case. I care, but I also care about the substantial harm being done to humans by the past 50 years of low-fat diet craze, so in my mind, as much I respect vegetarians, it'd be harmful to go around blindly pushing everyone to eat less or no meat.

For me, I see the greatest impact I can personally make as continuing to work to become successful and then investing a ton of money into lab-grown meat.

Anyway, it's something I'd like to help do something about, but it's not my life's focus. If I had a magic "make everyone stop eating meat" button, I'd be tempted to press it and figure out a way to personally adapt, but ultimately I think that would cause more harm than good without a market-ready drop-in replacement that fits the same macros. That's not the same as not caring or being unwilling to make a sacrifice; it's just caring about multiple things to varying degrees and being realistic.

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by Chris2048 on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @07:03AM (#15756133)
> but you aren't willing to make any sacrifice to make it be a particular way

Says who? OP is willing to make a sacrifice that results in desired effect - just not "any" sacrifice, which in this case does nothing.

If I think taxes should be lower, should I start paying less tax then I am asked to?

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by flarg on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @05:58AM (#15755897)
Maybe be the change you want to see in the world?
Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by legohead on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @11:19AM (#15757964)
Why did I get downvoted? I linked an educational video, and nobody has responded with contrary evidence.
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Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by kyberias on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @04:32AM (#15755525)
If you only watched the video, you'd know, there is also a reputable scientist teaching both of the actors.

Would you like to know whether that scientist is male or female? Does it matter? Go see the video.

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by ancarda on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @03:45AM (#15755331)
Are men not allowed to teach? Adam Ruins Everything is an educational show - they’re all actors
Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by klmr on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @05:39AM (#15755813)
The problem is that the researcher is set up as a terrible straw man, and that in turn makes Adam look a bit like an asshole here, even before getting to animal testing: To start off, she claims that “you can’t [prove things wrong in] science!” … excuse me?! Science is all about [hypotheses] being proved wrong. That’s quite literally its definition.

On we go: “Everyone knows testing on rodents is practically the same as doing actual human trials”. Actually, no competent researcher thinks that. I’ll grant that it’s a fairly common misconception in the media, and one that’s definitely worth addressing.

But it’s disingenuous and counter-productive to do this by creating other misconceptions — namely about what science is (see above), and that scientists are somehow oblivious to the (very obvious!) deficiencies of animal testing. That doesn’t mean that mouse model research is useless — far from it (unfortunately). It’s a crucial first step in a lot of biological and medical research.

To be sure, Dr Raza — as an expert — makes excellent points! But so does the FDA when it mandates animal trials before human trials: Adam points to an example where a drug went to human trials and almost killed the patients even though it was safe in mice. OK. Now imagine how often that would happen if we didn’t have preliminary mouse studies.

That said, all (!) animal research scientists I know support stronger regulations on mouse research. And, although I can’t speak for the US, the regulations are already a lot stricter in the UK and Germany than claimed in Adam’s video.

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Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by rootlocus on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @04:28AM (#15755507)
> the actors behind the cartoon are reading a script written by someone...

So.. it really doesn't matter who teaches and who listens, because ultimately they're both actors reading from a script. How does that play in favor of your argument?

Not to mention the woman he's explaining to is a scientist researcher, and at the end of the video, they have Dr. Azra Raza as a guest (who is also a woman) to further solidify the arguments.

If you think you're defending anything by calling it "mansplaining" and complaining that women aren't treated fairly, you're wrong and you're not helping anyone.

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by oihssovhusvoh on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @06:07AM (#15755929)
the cartoon depicts an incompetent woman scientist being talked-down to by an arrogant dick! It has the form:

woman: "<erroneously> science says X"

man : "<correcting her> actually the truth is Y"

The jerk also talks-down to us the audience. It's terrible science-education and it's not "humor"

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by kbutler on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @08:39AM (#15756659)
Would it be any better if the genders of the actors were reversed?

"mansplain" is a gender-biased criticism of behavior. It implies that the gender of the participants is the problem, rather than the attitudes or behavior.

But apparently the mice in the study react to the gender, so maybe it's germane...

Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by oihssovhusvoh on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @12:57PM (#15758851)
everyone know's it's men who do it so don't pretend it's a reversible situation
Re:Ketamine lifts rodents' mood only if administered by male... by kbutler on Wednesday November 22, 2017 @02:10PM (#15759525)
Sorry, I mistook you for someone attempting to add value to the conversation.