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Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by derefr on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @05:31PM (#15708525)
Investor accreditation makes sense (for now.) Giving poor people free access to untested-investment-vehicle-X is basically the same as giving them over-the-counter access to scheduled drugs. Mistakes will be made, and the people making them—lacking resources as they do—won't be able to recover from them.

Right now, we're spending a lot of money trying to figure out how to get people out of these ruts. (Free housing seems to be helpful.) Creating more ways for people to get themselves into them seems ill-thought-out.

On the other hand (to pile tangent upon tangent), something like UBI would neatly fix the "problem" that investor accreditation addresses, because it would mean that even the poorest people would have a cushion in case their investments don't work out.

Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by andr3w321 on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @06:55PM (#15709165)
"Investor accreditation makes sense (for now.)"

No it doesn't. It's pure nanny statism. The government has no business telling people what they can and can't invest in or spend their money on. Yes startups are risky. So are lots of things. Why should the wealthy have no restrictions on them, but the poor do? This is literally "class warfare".

Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by derefr on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @07:01PM (#15709196)
The government isn't telling people what they can invest in; it's telling companies whether they can take people's money. It's not illegal to hand money to a private company (you will not be charged with a crime); it's illegal to, as the company, accept that money.

Private companies are a very specific kind of company—they're supposed to be a temporary condition, a way for companies to not have to go through the effort of going through disclosure, underwriting, etc. right away, because they're still just two guys in a garage and don't have the resources to do so. Private companies, as a special case, don't get to participate in all the things public (i.e. "normal") companies do. Private companies are to public companies as minors are to adults.

In your phrasing, you could say that government also "tells people what they can and can't" eat, in the form of the FDA. But, just like this case, it should be clear that the FDA never goes after someone for eating a poisoned cucumber; it just goes after the company for selling poisoned cucumbers.

(The DEA, on the other hand, is pure nanny-state-ism.)

Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by andr3w321 on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @07:22PM (#15709272)
Regarding the FDA I don't think the government should be telling me what drugs I can and can't take. Plenty of people are denied from taking early stage drugs because they are not FDA approved and dangerous, but if people are aware of the risks I think they should have every right to take them.

In your poison cucumber example I think this would qualify as knowingly poisoning someone else which is clearly illegal and we do not need the FDA for that. As long as the cucumber is labeled as "poison" I have no problem with people selling them.

Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by derefr on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @07:33PM (#15709335)
The FDA doesn't tell you what drugs you can and cannot take. (That's what the DEA does, and why I don't like them.) The FDA just tells companies what drugs they can and cannot sell in the US. If the DEA didn't exist, and you wanted an early-stage drug, you could just mail-order it from another country where they do sell such drugs, and nobody would stop you from taking it. Or you could get in on an informal "clinical study" of your friend making it in their chem lab, and take it. As long as no money was changing hands, the FDA wouldn't care.

To be clear, the strict purpose of the FDA is to ensure that for things-where-you-can't-easily-tell-what's-in-them, like food or drugs—but which have ingredient labels (or names that serve as common-sense ingredient labels), the thing must actually contain what it's labelled (or common-sense expected) to contain.

The FDA looks for poisoned cucumbers, because the FDA's job is to define "cucumber" and stop people from selling something as a "cucumber" if it's not one.

That's about poisoning; but it's also about high levels of weird things like potassium, that are fine normally but which people don't think of as being in a cucumber and might interact with the drugs some people take. It's also about products that don't contain the right ingredients (i.e. why Cheez Whiz isn't Cheese Whiz.)

And, for drugs, it's about the name mapping to a registered claim of a particular effect, such that manufacturing pills that don't have that effect means you can't call them by the registered name. (Otherwise you could sell "ibuprofen" with 2 nanograms of ibuprofen per cap. The ingredients list wouldn't be a lie, per se; it would still contain ibuprofen.)

Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by andr3w321 on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @07:39PM (#15709363)
Thanks - learned a bit here. You did contradict yourself though from your original reply to this one.

"In your phrasing, you could say that government also "tells people what they can and can't" eat, in the form of the FDA."

"The FDA doesn't tell you what drugs you can and cannot take."

Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by derefr on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @07:41PM (#15709375)
First one is an expression of your perspective; the second one is mine.

The FDA's actions do effectively stop you from having any source to buy a poisoned cucumber, or homeopathic ibuprofen, or whatever else, where said source is a US corporation. But only because it's going after those corporations. It doesn't care what you do.

(In a world where the FDA did care about such things, we'd probably have "drug tourism" laws the way we have "sex tourism" laws, where you could be prosecuted for drugs you used while abroad.)

Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by dragonwriter on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @07:27PM (#15709311)
> Regarding the FDA I don't think the government should be telling me what drugs I can and can't take.

That's not what the FDA does (the DEA, OTOH...)

The FDA deals with how drugs can be marketed, not what people can take.

Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by lend000 on Thursday November 16, 2017 @12:02AM (#15710358)
> The FDA deals with how drugs can be marketed, not what people can take.

If that's all it did, the FDA would be an ideal system. However, that's not true; the FDA also deals with which drugs can be marketed. Effectively, the FDA is indirectly preventing citizens from taking experimental drugs, whether they have a terminal illness or not.

Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by chimeracoder on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @08:30PM (#15709626)
> It's not illegal to hand money to a private company (you will not be charged with a crime); it's illegal to, as the company, accept that money

IANAL, but I'm fairly certain it's actually the solicitation part that's illegal. In theory, the company could accept it without an issue if they could prove that they didn't solicit at any point. In practice, there's no way to do that reliably, though.

Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by jrs95 on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @05:38PM (#15708599)
It's not about poor people. A huge number of middle class people aren't accredited investors. But they could easily put a small sum into a high risk investment and potentially benefit greatly from it. Bitcoin is a decent example of this. There aren't any accredited investors regulations, and I highly doubt there's hardly anyone who bought so much of it that they'd go bankrupt if it became worth $0
Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by dmoy on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @06:04PM (#15708853)
I would be absolutely shocked if Bitcoin hit $0 and nobody came out of the woodwork sheepishly admitting that their investment strategy was "put 110% in Bitcoin". People go bankrupt on much sillier schemes than Bitcoin on a routine basis...
Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by skyfold on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @07:56PM (#15709448)
I already cashed out enough to pay for school, a new house, and a new car. My parents are farmers. Even if Bitcoin went to $0, the number of people who became wealthy vs broke would be skewed towards individuals becoming wealthy because the late money is primarily institutional.
Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by dnautics on Thursday November 16, 2017 @01:35AM (#15710646)
They won't go bankrupt because they aren't purchasing it using leverage.
Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by Sevii on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @07:59PM (#15709457)
Poor people are allowed to legally gamble away their money in situations where its 100% known that they will lose it all.
Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by derefr on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @08:08PM (#15709518)
This is kind of why commercial casinos are illegal in 30 states, why racetrack betting is illegal in 29 states, why online gambling is illegal in 46(!) states, and why the only legal (non-charitable) lotteries are state-run.

It's not leftover morality laws; it's that monitoring commercial gambling to protect against exploitation of the poor is a really hard problem, one we haven't really solved. Some states choose to allow it despite this, and then deal with the consequences of increased poverty. Most don't. (And then they're forced to allow it in anyway by native on-res exceptions.)

This is also why such commercial gambling establishments as are legalized, are heavily regulated. For example, see the Nevada state laws on gaming fraud: https://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-465.html#NRS465Sec070

Those laws aren't there to stop people trying to cheat the house. They're there to stop the house from exploiting people by rigging the game.

Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by smsm42 on Thursday November 16, 2017 @01:57AM (#15710706)
> This is kind of why commercial casinos are illegal in 30 states, why racetrack betting is illegal in 29 states, why online gambling is illegal in 46(!) states, and why the only legal (non-charitable) lotteries are state-run.

And we all know no poor person in these states ever gambled their money away! Or, alternatively, they did gamble it away, but since gambling is illegal, they were also cheated mercilessly and have no recourse and no place to complain, since being poor and telling police you participated in illegal activity gets you an express ticket to jail.

Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by zanny on Thursday November 16, 2017 @07:03PM (#15717847)
Meanwhile, buying loot chests in Android games is perfectly legal and lets people spend thousands of dollars in a gambling stupor and get nothing for it.
Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by chimeracoder on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @08:31PM (#15709631)
> Poor people are allowed to legally gamble away their money in situations where its 100% known that they will lose it all.

Gambling is viewed as entertainment, both by the government and the people participating in it.

As entertaining as startup life can be, there's a very big difference between a risky investment and gambling for entertainment value.

Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by njarboe on Thursday November 16, 2017 @11:43AM (#15714106)
In the US we let people gamble; the government even runs and promotes it in many states. We let people get credit cards to buy consumable products and then pay 20%-30% interest. We let them take out loans to buy real estate worth multiples of their annual salary and have a debt overhang greater than they could ever save in a lifetime. We let teen-agers take out $100k of student loans that can't even be dismissed by bankruptcy. We are not "protecting" people in all these other problematic financial situations.

I might advocate for shutting down gambling, credit cards and getting the government out of student and home loans, but if we think those actions should be are allowed, investing in small companies should be also.

Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by tinus_hn on Friday November 17, 2017 @07:05AM (#15721318)
> I might advocate for shutting down gambling, [...]

Why not reintroduce prohibition while you’re at it? It is not possible to force your opinion on other people like that, it only drives the behavior underground, which is a breeding ground for crime.

Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by walshemj on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @06:20PM (#15708969)
Why I don't see many people in the UK going bankrupt of stockmarket investments opposed to say video poker in the Bookies

Its just the Maggie meant what she said about a shareholding democracy

And even Sweden has a strong retail shareholdings they even have national organisation that looks out for their interests

Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by derefr on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @06:41PM (#15709101)
I don’t think you have the correct picture of what the US “accreditied investor” laws are about.

Anyone can invest in publicly-traded companies. The law prevents unaccredited (i.e. not rich) investors from investing in private companies.

A company has to go through a number of processes, such as disclosure and underwriting, when it goes public. These processes effectively make it a much safer investment vehicle, amenable to purchase by pretty much anyone. A company that hasn’t gone public hasn’t gone through these processes, and therefore might just be a huckster’s sham.

For a look at what it looks like when private companies are allowed to raise money from the public, don’t look at other countries (which have similar laws) or at Bitcoin (which nobody but rich people even understands.) Look at early Kickstarter, before they put in more stringent disclosure requirements; and look at Indiegogo, which still doesn’t have such requirements. Especially look at projects that started on Kickstarter, were kicked off for not meeting the disclosure requirements, and then went on to raise money on Indiegogo. You know what percentage of those are scams? It’s not small.

Early US stock market investment, before the requirements to IPO were made stringent, look a lot like Indiegogo. Anything and everything was up for investment, without examination. Many people did lose their livelihoods.

Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by walshemj on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @07:27PM (#15709309)
Yes that was pre crash of 1929 its 2017.
Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by walshemj on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @07:24PM (#15709287)
Banned from investing in floats on the UK stockmarket though
Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by abecedarius on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @10:16PM (#15710030)
I can see that being a millionaire already is (somewhat) correlated with being less vulnerable to scams, but if you were designing a rule to protect the vulnerable, is that really what you'd come up with?

The first thing to come to mind for me, besides taking a test, is for people to show they can make it as a blackjack card-counter -- seriously, wouldn't an official investor-accrediting poker league, even, do a better job of sorting out or educating the marks and freeing up much more of the population to invest? If we have to deal with this problem by prior restraint at all.

Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by kakarot on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @06:59PM (#15709188)
> basically the same as giving them over-the-counter access to scheduled drugs.

Something that also should be legal (with reasonable discrimination). I would choose a different metaphor because this one doesn't work in your favor.

Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by derefr on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @07:11PM (#15709231)
I believe in safe injection sites; in having way more doctors; in having more state-sponsored free clinics; in encouraging said free clinics to be willing to prescribe narcotics in cases where the patient is unable to function without them; in support programs for getting over addiction using drugs like naltrexone; etc. I also, I should especially highlight, don't believe in prosecuting people for drug possession, of any kind or amount.

But I don't believe that we would benefit, on net, if you could buy heroin in the corner convenience store without a doctor's encouragement to do so. The number of people who would be able to safely manage their own treatment, would be outweighed by the number of people who would become newly addicted due to increased access and the aura of illegitimacy being removed.

Re:All 500 of the world's top 500 supercomputers are running... by bfuller on Thursday November 16, 2017 @01:30AM (#15710627)
Not everyone is against drug legalization