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Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by david-gpu on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @11:39AM (#15654058)
The world would be moving away from poverty a lot faster if there was less inequality.
Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by dmix on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @12:05PM (#15654353)
Yes, lowered inequality is a good metric for success but it's very popular these days for it to be sold as a complete solution in itself. The problem with pure redistribution as a model for increasing wealth in developing countries, or stagnant wealthy ones, is that you can only take someones money and give it to another person once. You can't transfer a wealthy persons ability to generate wealth to another person or country.

A long term reduction in poverty and a more balanced relative income ratios has to come through self-sustainable economic development in the middle, and upward mobility from the bottom. Wealth transfer is just a temporary fix, an initial boost - but it is not an adequate endgame... as many pure socialist countries quickly learned after the glow of the early days wore off. Redistribution as a primary policy is also increasingly difficult to pull off via central policy, given global marketplace, technology's impact on finance, and the growth of countries which act as tax havens.

There is plenty of indifference in practice towards legitimately taxing the wealthy but it's been a hot topic globally for a while now and I fear this obsession has been a large distraction from figuring out how to help the middle/bottom develop their own jobs and businesses. To push up their wages and salaries as the primary goal, not just increasing the tax base for better government services and reduced tax burden on the middle.

Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by dangerlibrary on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @12:47PM (#15654830)
"You can't transfer a wealthy persons ability to generate wealth to another person or country."

When wealth generation is coming from rent collection on existing assets, redistributing wealth and redistributing wealth generation are equivalent.

Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by ryandrake on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @01:27PM (#15655341)
In other words, wealth is the means of production.
Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by collyw on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @01:56PM (#15655693)
Nothing is being produced when rent seeking.
Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by milcron on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @02:25PM (#15656001)
That's a good point, which potentially leads to Georgism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism

> Georgism, also called geoism and single tax, is an economic philosophy holding that, while people should own the value they produce themselves, economic value derived from land (including natural resources and natural opportunities) should belong equally to all members of society.

> Any natural resource which is inherently limited in supply can generate economic rent, but the classical and most significant example of 'land monopoly' involves the extraction of common ground rent from valuable urban locations. Georgists argue that taxing economic rent is efficient, fair, and equitable. The main Georgist policy recommendation is a tax assessed on land value. Georgists argue that revenues from a land value tax (LVT) can be used to reduce or eliminate existing taxes (for example, on income, trade, or purchases) that are unfair and inefficient. Some Georgists also advocate for the return of surplus public revenue back to the people by means of a basic income or citizen's dividend.

Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by collyw on Thursday November 09, 2017 @02:16PM (#15665031)
That actually matches my current political views fairly accurately. I didn't know the name for it (or that there was a name for it).
Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by ameister14 on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @12:40PM (#15654755)
>lowered inequality is a good metric for success

For measuring the success of what, exactly? Economic success? Average incomes? Doesn't seem to be a very good metric for either.

Lowered inequality seems to me to be a good metric for measuring the success of attempts to lower inequality, and not much else.

Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by euyyn on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @01:32PM (#15655389)
It's a good metric for success at giving everyone equal opportunity at birth.
Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by ameister14 on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @01:47PM (#15655595)
Not really. You can have low income inequality through redistribution of wealth and still have massive differences in opportunity at birth based on other, non-monetary societal factors.
Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by euyyn on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @02:05PM (#15655771)
I see that, and yet those other factors nowadays have some correlation with wealth too. In Spain gypsies are discriminated against, with a stereotype of them being poor, not educated, and thieves. And yet the children of a rich gypsy football player won't probably even be thought of as gypsies, just kids.
Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by ameister14 on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @02:25PM (#15656002)
That's not because he's rich; it's because he's a famous footballer. People won't know that he's rich if he's not also famous, and they associate him with the club he plays for and the skillset he possesses more than his wealth.
Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by euyyn on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @03:03PM (#15656423)
I disagree: You're describing what fans of him will think of his son.

But in this kid's day-to-day life after graduating, unless he becomes famous on his own, nobody will know who he is. They'll just see a dude that dresses well, lives in a well-off neighborhood, and got an education like everybody else. He won't have been raised in a violent neighborhood with poor access to education. And no employer will think twice about his application on account of his looks or the way he speaks.

Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by ameister14 on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @05:12PM (#15657620)
That's possible, yes. However if his father is not a football player but instead is a bookkeeper, the education and accent may end pulling him out of the racial association he is in just as easily.
Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by euyyn on Thursday November 09, 2017 @12:03PM (#15663982)
Yeah, agreed, I was thinking of the footballer because it's a real-life case I know of. But it's not necessary to have rich parents, just not being poor helps with those other societal factors you mentioned that hinder equal opportunity.
Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by fjsolwmv on Thursday November 09, 2017 @11:11AM (#15663547)
Theoretically only.
Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by dsp1234 on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @01:38PM (#15655477)
You can't transfer a wealthy persons ability to generate wealth to another person or country.

Isn't that exactly the VC model?

Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by splintercell on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @11:55AM (#15654229)
Or the argument can be made that the world is moving away from poverty at the back of 1%ers. The point being that 1% is getting richer than the average person of their own country, by lifting the poorest person of a poor country upwards.

The only loser here is the middle class of rich countries, not middle or poor class of poor countries.

Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by sokoloff on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @02:13PM (#15655858)
The middle class in America today is wildly, wildly better off than 100, 50, 25, or 10 years ago, IMO.

100 years ago, they didn't have phase-change refrigeration, instead relying on ice. (That's why your grandmother might still call it an "ice box".)

50 years ago, they didn't have air conditioning.

25 years ago, they didn't have cars that would reliably run for 250K miles with airbags, anti-lock brakes, traction control, and which required very regular servicing to keep running.

10 years ago they probably didn't have a smart phone with the world's information in their back pocket.

All of those things are now readily affordable and very commonplace in the middle class.

Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by ttoinou on Thursday November 09, 2017 @04:59AM (#15661166)
All great results of relatively free markets.

And we have people complaining about housing and healthcare.... I know the solution to theses issues

Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by collyw on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @02:12PM (#15655842)
Correlation doesn't imply causation, or ave you got any supporting evidence of that?
Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by TheAdamAndChe on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @11:56AM (#15654241)
I really dislike the effects that globalization and growing inequality has had on rural America in particular, but I'm not sure that _global_ poverty would be improving at the rate that it has been without globalization. Much of impoverished eastern Asia has been growing economically because manufacturing jobs have been shipped there from the richest areas in the world. Without that massive injection of capital into those areas, it would have been incredibly tough, if not impossible to get the momentum required to generate such growth.
Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by dmix on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @12:24PM (#15654546)
This would be true only if China, et al, just took the jobs and did them the same. But Asia is not just known for their cheap labour, they are really really good at running factories and manufacturing products.

If their only value prop was cheap labour then manufacturing could easily have flourished in plenty of other countries with cheap labour (eastern europe, latin america, africa?). And plenty are geographically closer and have more similar language/culture to the western markets than Asia. But there is more to it, Asian countries have a talent for it and have mastered manufacturing and related industries like steel production.

I doubt any American factories could legitimately compete with Asia, even if the wages were the same, without some heavy-duty automation. And Asia has many other advantages around vertical integration of factories, such as access to raw materials, from there and other countries they've developed relationships with.

Now it's possible these advantages are just a side-effect of the fact the industry residing in Asia in recent decades but I believe there's far more to it, even regardless of the wage advantages, they are very much deserving of that industry.

Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by GcVmvNhBsU on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @01:50PM (#15655633)
I highly doubt there is some hereditary trait that makes Asians better at running factories than those other countries. It's more likely that given the tremendous amount of manufacturing that's been pushed to those countries, they have had ample practice to become leaders at the process.

If you look holistically at what happened, you're more likely to find why so much moved to Asia. Geographically speaking there may have been closer low-wage countries, but distance alone does not determine where you can build appropriate facilities.

Geologically, China has access to large ports, allowing large amounts of tonnage to flow in and out. You have a generally easy path from China to California. Eastern Europe is out because you can't easily ship to and from. Similarly, jungles and mountains in Latin/South America and Africa keep large manufacturing bases from being built. Africa lacks sufficient ports - its largest ships 1/10 the tonnage that Shanghai does.

At a local political level, you have governments willing to subsidize manufacturing and tolerate certain working conditions that other governments wouldn't. From an international perspective, you have incentives to bring capitalism to the borders of previous socialist countries as a destabilization measure (large increases in US-China trade in the 80s).

Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by Frondo on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @12:30PM (#15654613)
As an American, my interest is in seeing the quality of life for my fellow citizens improve first.

Yes, people in other countries are people too, etc., but they also have their own governance, their own resources, their own economics systems to manage and oversee.

I can take no active part in any of that--only my own country's.

Until we have one world government, I'm always going to prioritize the places where I have at least some capacity to pull the levers in ways I think are better for people.

(This is why I dislike, in general, the specious globalist argument, "but the poors overseas deserve wealth too," sure they do, but they also live in sovereign nations and it's up to them to guide and shape their own.)

Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by hkmurakami on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @12:39PM (#15654746)
I just want to vocally support your having expressed this view. I don't necessarily agree wholesale with the position, but I think it's a perfectly reasonable and sound preference to have, but one that, if said in public, with your real identity attached to it, you may be admonished for.

And that I find to be a shame -- that we find it so difficult to see the logic in a position we may disagree with.

Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by lotsofpulp on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @01:50PM (#15655630)
Because in reality, it leads to the bigger guy (America) bullying the smaller guys (middle east, central and south america, etc) in the name of making life better for Americans. Now that China is in the fray, and India to a lesser extent, Americans will start feeling the real cost of having such a high standard of living compared to others.
Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by Frondo on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @02:35PM (#15656099)
Hey thanks!

The other thing is, I don't just apply this to international politics, I'm a firm believer in working to change your local politics as much as possible above all else.

How your city runs is both more accessible to the layperson and has a far bigger impact on your day-to-day experience than federal stuff, for example.

That's not to say I'd eschew federal level politics--I'm a huge proponent for socialized medicine, stringent environmental regulations, and a host of other stuff.

But when I go out and campaign, I do it for local folks.

Re:Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth ... by ameister14 on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @12:37PM (#15654719)
It's hard to prove that, actually.