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Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by mosselman on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @03:42AM (#15641831)
So if switching to AMD is NOT the solution, what is? ARM?

For your portable needs there is: https://puri.sm/posts/purism-librem-laptops-completely-disab...

Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by deno on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @04:39AM (#15642037)
For desktop your options are:

— FX 8350 (Piledriver) from AMD with no PSP: very cheap, no flashing necessary, but not the best performance. Single core performance much worse than even Pentium G4620[1].

— Some Intel processors and a Raspberry Pi: much better performance but you have to ME_Clean the firmware, hence the Pi.

— POWER9 processor for amazing performance and completely open & free firmware all around: the CPU is $400 but you get $400 worth of performance, PCIe 4.0 etc., however the only mainboard you can get right now costs $2000, and it’s not x86, so you’d need to run your Windows VMs (if you need) on a seperate box.

Personally I recommend used IvyBridge-EP or Haswell Xeon E5 system, make sure it takes ECC DDR3 Reg ram and you can pick up lots of very cheap DDR3 ECC memory to go along with it.

Performance is pretty good, on par with mid level Ryzen[1], and it’s recent enough to have all the hardware extensions anyone cares about.

[1] http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/AMD-FX-8350-vs-Intel-Pe...

[2] http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Xeon-E5-1650-v2-v...

EDIT: Post before wrongly stated that you need pre-Skylake chip. Skylake/Kabylake µarch is also an option now, however some restrictions apply. I don’t think it’s very good value though, at least until Coffeelake is compatible.

Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by jabl on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @05:25AM (#15642227)
> Personally I recommend IvyBridge-EP or Haswell Xeon E5

Err, the ME has been present on every Intel system since 2006 or so.

The only thing that changed with Skylake is that the ME runs on an x86 core, on previous processors the ME ran on some RISC microcontroller.

Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by m45t3r on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @06:09AM (#15642427)
I think OP meant to say that you can disable ME in those CPUs, since they are pre-Skylale silicon.
Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by ChickeNES on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @05:52AM (#15642363)
Not just any RISC, but ARC, a descendant of the SNES's Super-FX chip
Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by deno on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @05:27AM (#15642233)
That’s not the only thing, but yeah I suppose you can get Skylake/Kabylake now with the HAP workaround.
Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by mschuster91 on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @07:19AM (#15642764)
> — Some Intel processors and a Raspberry Pi: much better performance but you have to ME_Clean the firmware, hence the Pi.

The Pi also has a binary blob requirement and a Trustzone implementation (which is however open to tinkering).

Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by deno on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @08:09AM (#15643014)
It’s just inexpensive flasher for the firmware.
Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by carussell on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @05:44PM (#15648403)
The PocketBeagle is competitive on price (<$25), and the chip has a complete 5000+ page, no-NDA datasheet/programming manual freely available from TI.
Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by ramshorns on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @09:20AM (#15643518)
BeagleBone Black might be another option for flashing the firmware.
Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by mosselman on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @09:31AM (#15643615)
Thanks for the options you mentioned!

Are there tutorials do do this?: Some Intel processors and a Raspberry Pi: much better performance but you have to ME_Clean the firmware, hence the Pi.

Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by deno on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @09:38AM (#15643676)
Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by mosselman on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @09:58AM (#15643828)
Thanks!
Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by timonovici on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @05:49AM (#15642346)
It's good to note that you still have mysterious chunks of blobs with newer laptops (including the purism one), also thanks to Intel - that's Intel FSP, that does the initialization for the processor and the memory.

Second, all system since about....2007 (?) have a Intel ME ROM burned inside the chipset, so there's no telling what is still running there, and what exactly is capable of.

Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by SparkleBunny on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @06:26AM (#15642485)
Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by cjsuk on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @04:29AM (#15642003)
SPARC was the solution. It's open and royalty free and was sold by multiple vendors. Add to that Open Firmware and you're done. It's also not the hacked up turd that x86-64 is or the fragmented mess that ARM is.

Problem is it's dead.

Going out on a limb here, but we can solve this with another layer of abstraction in the long term. We need to develop a fully portable open source virtual machine model (think p-code machine) that is portable and make that the canonical hardware abstraction. That makes all vendors irrelevant if they can't comply with it and opens the market to new hardware vendors with different sales models to provide an optimised hardware implementation of that abstraction. The incumbents (ARM, Intel, AMD) can't sell a security model if the abstraction denies them that ability. Sure they can sell you out, but new competition which is privacy focused should end that.

Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by sfifs on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @10:38AM (#15644238)
wasn't Java supposed to be precisely that?
Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by cjsuk on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @12:34PM (#15645489)
Yes I suppose it was.
Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by chii on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @05:16AM (#15642180)
> Problem is it's dead.

and if it's so good, why is sparc dead?

Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by detaro on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @05:18AM (#15642190)
Because most people don't buy their CPUs for openness, they buy them for price, performance and software support.

As far as I know, Fujitsu still sells it with high-end servers (attempting to take on IBM POWER), and it's still floating around in embedded designs, but it's a niche choice, with the associated downsides.

Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by cjsuk on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @05:20AM (#15642198)
Yes. Software support was good, but price and performance were not. That and Oracle.
Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by the_mitsuhiko on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @05:29AM (#15642242)
Big endian, not enough suppliers, Oracle, too expensive, not enough market share and much more
Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by sverige on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @11:09AM (#15644538)
They are not making more, but reasonably priced used sparc64 servers are still reasonably easy to find. OpenBSD runs well on most models.
Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by nickpsecurity on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @01:39PM (#15646175)
Maybe this:

https://minifree.org/product/libreboot-t400/

However, I assume any chip released after they added the backdoors also has the backdoors. So, you'd be looking for pre-2007, Pentium-class chips in SMP configuration. Maybe Pentium 4 Prescot-2M or Cedar Mill. Wikipedia shows the latter was on same node as Core Duo with 3-3.6GHz plus 2MB cache.

Far as non-Intel, both PPC and SPARC used Open Firmware. Plenty of them on eBay. Gaisler also made GPL versions of Leon3 you could build yourself or buy as a development board for who knows what price.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Firmware

In high-assurance security, I remember BootSafe tech letting someone write firmware in Java to benefit from all its testing and verification tech that was then translated into Open Firmware's Forth in a way that preserved the properties. That tech went proprietary but still exists. Something similar could be done in FOSS with a Rust or SPARK to Forth converter leveraging hard work already done by compiler/verification teams of source languages.

http://www.cs.cornell.edu/~kozen/papers/acsac.pdf

Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by SXX on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @04:18AM (#15641957)
AMD PSP is efficiently ARM tech called TrustZone so I would expect most of SOC to have own backdoors as well.

So far only option is POWER-based systems and they're costly.

Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by walterbell on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @05:38AM (#15642292)
Pre-PSP AMD CPUs are an option.
Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by als0 on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @05:50AM (#15642353)
ARM is an option as long as you have control over the TrustZone code, and some manufacturers give that to you. You'd probably have to rule out the large SoC vendors, though.
Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by jlebrech on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @04:16AM (#15641952)
using your dollar elsewhere will help.
Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by akoncius on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @08:03AM (#15642979)
for example where?
Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by jlebrech on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @09:45AM (#15643732)
AMD?
Re:MINIX: ​Intel's hidden in-chip operating system by Crespyl on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @12:15PM (#15645252)
AMD processors now include PSP/TrustZone.