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Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by Ajedi32 on Monday November 06, 2017 @03:02PM (#15638557)
> In late 2016 and early 2017 I became burned-out from hunting bugs as it became a race between some very talented researchers and I. For example Derrek and I spent 2 months auditing and coding up PoCs for some bugs in a wifi driver where nearly 95% of our reports were duplicates with the Chinese teams. It was becoming hard to compete with teams who do this 40 hours a week while I do it as a hobby over coffee on Saturday mornings.

This isn't really the main focus of the article, but I find this really interesting. There are teams of full-time Chinese researchers looking for and reporting vulnerabilities in Android? Are they doing this to win the bug bounties? If so, it sounds like Google's bug bounty program is really paying off.

Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by nobodyorother on Monday November 06, 2017 @03:08PM (#15638611)
I hope it's Google's bug bounty program that's paying off.
Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by Ajedi32 on Monday November 06, 2017 @03:11PM (#15638629)
If they were black-hat researchers, they wouldn't have reported the vulnerabilities to Google, and thus the researcher's reports wouldn't be considered duplicates.

My guess is they're either working for the bug bounties, or they're employed by a company that uses Android extensively and wants to make sure its secure.

Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by ac29 on Monday November 06, 2017 @05:13PM (#15639475)
Exploring the acknowledgements [0] shows many of these Chinese researchers are working for the big internet firms there (Alibaba, Tencent, Baidu), so my guess is they are more motivated in securing Android for internal use than collecting bounties (its entirely possible they run their own AOSP-based Android builds for employee-provided hardware).

Being China, its also possible that the Chinese government indirectly or directly sponsors this research, since Android is by far the most common smartphone OS there.

edit: C0RE Team [1], who also has many contributions seems to be an independent research company, who may be doing it just for the bounties.

[0] https://source.android.com/security/overview/acknowledgement...

[1] http://c0reteam.org/about.html

Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by wahern on Monday November 06, 2017 @07:51PM (#15640280)
An interesting exercise would be to compile notification dates with code commit dates, and then compare the average difference (notification date - commit date) among groups.

If there's a discrepancy, then that's possible evidence one group might be hoarding bugs, or at least waiting for notification approval from, e.g., a domestic intelligence agency.

Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by Cyphase on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @04:01AM (#15641904)
cue commit scrubbers
Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by gcb0 on Monday November 06, 2017 @09:31PM (#15640654)
The article mention hundreds of thousands of lines of code, where they couldn't even find the entry point to begin debugging. In a single wifi driver (that's not even considering the firmware)

sometimes infosec seems the most dreadful field.

Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by jxramos on Monday November 06, 2017 @04:01PM (#15638974)
that caught my eye too, anyone have a rough estimate for what sort of profitability one could expect from full time work in this field?
Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by ryanlol on Monday November 06, 2017 @04:23PM (#15639135)
If you're good at exploit dev? You can take however much money you want.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bitfinex-hacked-hongkong/...

If you're a world class exploit developer working full time, expect earn a few hundred million $ per year.

Of course there exists a whole industry full of people that'll offer you silly 6 digit salaries.

Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by make3 on Monday November 06, 2017 @08:39PM (#15640461)
source plz. for white hats, I mean
Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by sirk1882 on Monday November 06, 2017 @08:50PM (#15640500)
Probably depends on how willing you are to live and work in China.
Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by ryanlol on Monday November 06, 2017 @09:02PM (#15640536)
Oh, I mean I guess you can probably find some country that'll be able to work out a profit-sharing agreement with you and allow you to legally steal money.

https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/cyber/evgeniy-mikhailovich-bogach...

This guy is a good example of someone with a decent career in infosec operating on the right side of the law (Within his own jurisdiction, anyway).

If you want to do charity reporting bugs, then you obviously will get paid like charity workers do.

Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by tyingq on Monday November 06, 2017 @10:06PM (#15640788)
The question probably wasn't about whether an exploit specialist could net a lot of money, but rather, your claim of "a few hundred million $ per year". That's pretty extraordinary.
Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by ryanlol on Monday November 06, 2017 @10:11PM (#15640803)
How is it extraordinary? Cryptocurrency heists of that scale happen regularly.

Wire fraud in the high tens of millions is a daily thing. Shit out a OWA RCE bug and you can make billions swapping out bank account info in emails.

All the money in the world is controlled by insecure computers, of course skilled exploit devs can drown themselves in it.

Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by tyingq on Monday November 06, 2017 @10:16PM (#15640819)
You are describing rare, single digit numbers of events that netted enough to be characterized as hundreds of millions / year for a short time period. That's "extraordinary". Meaning that skill alone doesn't guarantee that earning level.

Generally, single digit millions/year seems a reasonable expectation for a very talented (and ethically flexible) exploit practitioner. Beyond that requires luck and right place / right time.

Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by ryanlol on Monday November 06, 2017 @10:20PM (#15640835)
Wire fraud is not rare. You can steal tens of millions by hacking a single companies webmail.

It doesn’t even have to be a company with any infosec staff, think any big factory or a mine. Large wire transfers over email are a daily thing.

I truly believe that the amount of people that could earn hundreds of millions a year doing this full time isn’t even that small.

Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by tyingq on Monday November 06, 2017 @10:22PM (#15640841)
Hundreds of millions, per year, to a single exploit specialist, is. Not arguing your general point of financial benefit for world class exploit specialists. Just arguing the scale.

The most famous one I'm aware of got $100M over two years and didn't get to keep it. http://fortune.com/2017/04/27/facebook-google-rimasauskas/

Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by ryanlol on Monday November 06, 2017 @10:27PM (#15640862)
Sure, I would expect that most people doing this sort of work don’t actually work full time.

But the amounts of money you could steal with relatively little work are truly immense.

>The most famous one I'm aware of got $100M over two years and didn't get to keep it. >http://fortune.com/2017/04/27/facebook-google-rimasauskas/

This guy seems to be the polar opposite of a world class exploit dev, but he got pretty far.

However he was also a pretty small player, I’m on my phone now but I’ll try to post some useful links in the morning.

Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by tyingq on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @09:30AM (#15643611)
>This guy seems to be the polar opposite of a world class exploit dev

Stealing $100M over two years from FB and Google? Sounds world class to me. Social engineering isn't an inferior skill to actual code exploits.

Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by ryanlol on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @12:00PM (#15645078)
>Stealing $100M over two years from FB and Google?

Yeah, I think at this point the largest actors in this field have stolen $1B+ just by themselves.

>Social engineering isn't an inferior skill to actual code exploits.

For this specific purpose it probably is. With a single webmail exploit you could trivially be stealing similar amounts in days from vast numbers of businesses. All you need to do is automatically (or manually) replace bank account information in the emails. This is a relatively simple task to automate.

A $20M wire being sent to some random bank account copypasted from OWA is nothing out of the ordinary. There are thousands, probably tens of thousands potential targets.

At least the FBI seems to think that these email compromises are a 5 billion dollar industry, https://securityledger.com/2017/05/fbi-business-email-compro... We haven't even seen any fancy 0days being used yet, the whole industry is prime for disruption by more sophisticated, more efficient actors.

In the face of all this it really seems hard to argue that a world class exploit dev couldn't be earning hundreds of millions a year with relative ease.

Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by droopybuns on Monday November 06, 2017 @04:45PM (#15639281)
Google doesn’t support app purchases in China.

https://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articles/2017-02-06/google-...

This has created a strange ecosystem for app stores in China, which depend on vulnerability exploitation in varying degrees for installation privileges.

Maybe some of the work is dual use, but the primary motivation for funding this kind of vuln discovery and exploit development seems to have been App Store ecosystem development in China.

Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by izacus on Monday November 06, 2017 @05:07PM (#15639430)
> This has created a strange ecosystem for app stores in China, which depend on vulnerability exploitation in varying degrees for installation privileges.

Can you explain that a bit more? 3rd party app stores are legitimate on Android, so why would they depend on vulnerability exploitation?

Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by droopybuns on Monday November 06, 2017 @09:58PM (#15640759)
I am a little unclear on why they operate the way they do, but the k33n team guys are all employed by Tencent. I’ve asked them about it and this was the rationale they presented.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tencent

Re:Exploring Previously Unknown Remote Kernel Bugs Affecting... by _pmf_ on Tuesday November 07, 2017 @04:32AM (#15642014)
> There are teams of full-time Chinese researchers looking for and reporting vulnerabilities in Android? Are they doing this to win the bug bounties?

I hope you are being sarcastic; guess again!