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Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by f_allwein on Thursday November 02, 2017 @10:04AM (#15610445)
Interesting how the pyramids have been around for 4500 years and we still don't know all about their structure...

Fun fact: there's a Neolithic site in Ireland, Newgrange, that's actually older than the pyramids. Fascinating and worth a visit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newgrange

Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by vowelless on Thursday November 02, 2017 @10:26AM (#15610647)
Nothing blows my mind more than Göbekli Tepe, especially its age.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe

Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by nkoren on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:34PM (#15612414)
Fun fact: Cleopatra and Mark Antony etc. lived closer in time to the invention of mobile phones than to the construction of the Great Pyramids. Egyptian history is deep.

Funner fact: the Great Pyramids were built closer in time to the invention of mobile phones than to the construction of Göbekli Tepe. Human history is way deep.

Funnest fact: if we don't fuck it up, we're still only at the dawn of history, not at the end of it.

Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by nl on Thursday November 02, 2017 @07:41PM (#15615398)
It took ~60,000 years to go from nearly extinct (possibly 40 "breeding pairs" of humans[1] left alive) to Göbekli Tepe, and we barely know anything about that time.

[1] http://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2012/10/22/163397584/ho...

Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by graphitezepp on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:26PM (#15612933)
Yeah but I am pretty worried about us fucking it up these days.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by nkoren on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:58PM (#15613233)
Me too. If this is a worry of yours, though, may I suggest, in no way rhetorically, going into the "not fucking it up" business? The pay is generally terrible, but nothing beats making your own hope.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by graphitezepp on Thursday November 02, 2017 @03:19PM (#15613402)
I could really go for some hope and would very much like to do something of that nature, but it's hard to figure out where my skills are best allocated.

As for the pay I am very difficult to motivate with money beyond what makes for housing and food security.

Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by nkoren on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:43AM (#15617591)
> it's hard to figure out where my skills are best allocated

Better is the enemy of good enough -- just do something, and if that doesn't work, do something else.

There are so many issues facing the world: climate change, population growth (/collapse, depending on where you are), food security, energy security, biodiversity, civil society, socioeconomics in the face of automation, supervolcanos, etc. etc. etc.

There are diverse solutions to all these problems. If energy security is your thing, then everything from better residential insulation, to business process optimisation for solar panel installation, to R&D for fusion reactors is potentially part of the solution. Pick whichever one interests you the most. You don't need to be the Elon Musk of whatever it is that you've chosen: if someone else is already doing it, they'll need everything from web developers to janitors. Work for them, and you'll be part of the solution. And if in a few years you see something that'll make you even more hopeful, do that instead.

Personally, I chose "better urban design" as my personal route to saving the world. If we could make much better cities, this would seriously mitigate issues with energy consumption, climate change, land use, and civil society. But how best to do this?

First I tried being an architect. But the impact I could make was limited by the property developers I worked for, who were limited by the urban planners they worked around, who were limited by the urban infrastructure technologies they worked with. So I changed careers, taking aim at transport technology innovation. Went back to school, got an MBA, and joined a company developing a new class of transport technology (the Heathrow Pod, if you're curious). After a few years I realised that my influence was constrained by working for the technology vendor; I actually needed to work for governments instead. So I switched careers again and became a transport-planning consultant doing advisory work in 14 countries. After a few years I realised that my advisory services were producing cool feasibility studies but no actual results, because the actual implementations were too constrained by antiquated, innovation-inhibiting communications processes and planning/design tools. This was a software problem. So I switched careers again and started a company developing collaborative urban planning software (https://www.podaris.com), and now spend most of every week fighting with Javascript. This can be a tough slog, but it's Javascript that will hopefully change the way that cities are designed, thereby doing my bit to save the world. I feel good about it.

The above story isn't meant to be illustrative of what you or anyone else should do. WHAT you do will be different for everyone, and is very nearly irrelevant, provided you've put some thought into it. THAT you do is the important part -- and you are absolutely capable of doing it.

Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by pegasus on Friday November 03, 2017 @07:21AM (#15618258)
Thank you for sharing your inspiring story!
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by ace_of_spades on Friday November 03, 2017 @06:53AM (#15618132)
You should check out 80000hours.org! It‘s a yc company focused on helping bright people find the best job to make a positive impact in this world. I highly recommend it :)
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by Abekkus on Thursday November 02, 2017 @11:44PM (#15616539)
I would like to find a "hacker news" for the "not fucking it up" business, please. Especially for the part where we try to keep the military and police from being automated.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by dredmorbius on Thursday November 02, 2017 @07:18PM (#15615267)
What does this business entail?
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by nkoren on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:46AM (#15617600)
For me personally, endless fights with Javascript. I'm the founder of www.podaris.com. If we're successful, it'll change the way that cities are designed, and getting cities right is a really critical part of not fucking up the world.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by dsfyu404ed on Friday November 03, 2017 @06:34AM (#15618051)
People have been complaining about the imminent collapse of society for pretty much all of recorded history. We're not special.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by rusk on Friday November 03, 2017 @07:41AM (#15618334)
and I'm sure on a few occasions (Ice Age - not recorded but anyway), black death, and various other cataclysms they may have thought they were right. Lets hope we're not among those.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by nkoren on Saturday November 04, 2017 @01:02PM (#15625885)
A lot of them were right. We live on the bones of numerous dead civilisations. You really don't want to have a collapse happen in your lifetime.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by qubex on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:01PM (#15611569)
Yes I visited it in 2012 and spoke with the German archaeologist who found it, Claus Schmidt. Amazing place and an amazing man, sorely missed.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by nnq on Friday November 03, 2017 @10:37AM (#15619475)
The style of the animal carvings is really interesting - they look somewhat symbolic as letters in a "visual language" instead of artistic... "artistic" drawings/sculptures seek either to be skeurmorphic, aka imitate nature, or intentionally simplistic but following some "universally aesthetically pleasing" style, relative as it may be. These have things like the number of legs correct, but nothing about the angles.

These look like neither... and that's damn weird! Almost like what a blind carver would make from listening to a description of a thing he never saw and carving it.

Probably the oldest cave paintings are like this, but those are like "simplest thing one can do" while these imply effort, but... somehow "skillfully retarted", like there was something "messed up" with the minds of the designers, or simply very different from our own.

Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by marnett on Thursday November 02, 2017 @09:28PM (#15616023)
Thanks for sharing this place. I've visited Turkey and unfortunately was unaware of this site then.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by wuliwong on Thursday November 02, 2017 @11:52AM (#15611476)
Yes! Göbekli Tepe is so fascinating!
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by qubex on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:00PM (#15611561)
Imagine if they find an opened chamber, and that it contains artefacts that can be carbon-dated, and they turn out to be thousands of years older than conventional Egyptology expects.

(I expect there will be artefacts, and I expect their dates will coincide with what we already expect, but I’m always holding out for ”new science” that needs to be explained.)

Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by dkersten on Thursday November 02, 2017 @12:28PM (#15611864)
There are thousands of sumerian cuneiform tablets left to translate, if you're bored ;-) Many of these predate the pyramids by a thousand years or so. Most translated ones contain mundane enough stuff, so its likely that the rest are similar, but if you're looking for something ancient to discover something in, I can't think of a better place to look given their age and that they're already found (ie available to read).
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by qubex on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:41PM (#15613082)
You are missing my point (which I inadvertently mangled by writing ”opened chamber” in lieu of ”unopened chamber"): the whole Great Pyramid is entirely structural and there have never been artefacts found within it that can be said to have been present at the time of building and that could be definitively carbon-dated. A single sigil of dubious origin on ancient plaster repair-work in the load-baring spaces above the King’s Chamber are the only reference to Kufu in the whole structure. This recently changed when builders’ inscriptions were found behind the sealed door drilled through by the robot in the Queen’s Chamber shaft, but the paint in question has not been carbon-dated yet, because somehow you’d need to engineer a device to scrape a sample off and retrieve it.

So if this hypothetical chamber were found to be intact and unopened, and to contain artefacts made not of stone but of wood or fibre, then finally it would be possible to definitively date the structure and corroborate (or refute) the timeline currently taken for granted.

Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by dkersten on Friday November 03, 2017 @07:51AM (#15618401)
Ah, ok, so your point was that we really don't know for sure that the pyramids (or, at least, the Kufu one) is as old as we believe, because the dating that has been done is somewhat dubious, and you are hoping it is much older?

My point doesn't really go against this, just that it may be more practical to look at what we already have access to, but is largely not translated.

Also, since we have dated many other Egyptian artefacts, we can assume that the civilisation is that old (but of course, the pyramids could have pre-dated them). If they did find any artefacts with writing in the chamber and it is much older than when we believe the pyramids were built, I wouldn't be surprised if the artefacts contained Akkadian or Sumerian cuneiform anyway ;-)

Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by qubex on Sunday November 05, 2017 @06:55AM (#15629043)
My point is subtle. We definitely know when the ancient Egyptian civilisation existed, and that has been definitely dated by many coherent methods: carbon dating of artefacts at other sites, historical record, and archeological layers. The issue (which I am perfectly aware merely articulating makes me sound like a kook, but hear me out and know beforehand that I am very skeptical about the likelihood of what I am stating might actually be true) is that we have not got definitive links between the pyramids and the Ancient Egyptian civilisation as we construe it. In most ancient Egyptian texts the pyramids are referred to as being already ancient but claimed to be of their own origin, but in other civilisations (e.g., the ancient Chinese and their claim of the “Yellow Emperor” et al) we have found that civilisations’ own accounts about their origins and claims to being the artificers of grand monuments is not always reliable. What if the pyramids actually predated the ancient Egyptians by millennia, and the ancient Egyptians merely arose later around them, in the same area, and claimed them as their own? There is much pseudoscience in this regard, but certain highly controversial geological observations about the weathering of the Sphinx in particular are particularly telling (in my opinion): it would seem that the prevailing opinion of geologists is that the weathering exhibited on the body of the Sphinx is the product of tens of millennia of water erosion, which is at odds with archeologists’ prevailing opinion is that the erosion “must be” the result of mere millennia of sand erosion, because “we already know” that the Sphinx was built “by the Ancient Egyptians, mere thousands of years before C.E.”. The reasoning is inherently circular, and enrages me. I would very much like to have original artefacts demonstrably linked with the epoch of construction from inside the Pyramids definitely carbon-dated so that this circularity can be once and for all escaped-from. In the end, I fully expect that such independent verification would lead to confirmation that the Pyramids and the Sphinx do indeed date from the early period of the Old Kingdom... but proof would be delightful, and besides, we do other kinds of science (such as running the LHC) in hopes of seeing disagreement with prevailing theories... wouldn't it be amazingly exciting if it turned out that this were not the case? No extraterrestrials... just much deeper human history than we have hitherto fathomed.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by dkersten on Monday November 06, 2017 @05:07AM (#15634470)
I agree, it would be good to prove scientifically instead of relying on fallacious circular reasoning and assumptions, and it would certainly be exciting if it proved that there was more to the story.

My main point was simply that given that the oldest written texts we have are Sumerian cuneiform, it would seem likely that if there were written texts hidden in the pyramids which predates Ancient Egyptian civilisation, it would likely be cuneiform too, although it would be incredible if even older texts were found (and decipherable)! Early-human history is very interesting.

(I am aware that there is older proto-writing than cuneiform, but not complete written texts)

Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by qubex on Wednesday November 08, 2017 @08:41AM (#15652244)
I’d never really entertained the notion that there might be earlier forms of writing, and if they existed, what form they might be expected to take. This is a really fascinating issue. Maybe we’ll find scribbles that resemble Linear-A (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_A) all over the inside of this hidden space. Wouldn’t that be exciting, even if we couldn’t read it?!
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by pbhjpbhj on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:39PM (#15612464)
Suprised they're not largely machine readable given the geometric nature of cuneiform. You might have to aggressively guess some combinations as the components of hte symbols aren't always well separated but it seems easier than reading current alphabets/characters.

I did get in to cuneiform at one point in the past but the dictionary to translate was, IIRC, over £1k.

Any good links you can suggest for corpus of works that are likely to yield interesting output, and sources to aid in that?

What software is good for aiding such translation work?

Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by dkersten on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:38PM (#15613047)
Perhaps it’s just that nobody has tried? I can’t imagine it’s as difficult as, say, Google Street View’s street number recognition.

Unfortunately I don’t have any answers to your question. I’m a rather casual observer with an interest but little experience. I only recently got interested enough to buy some books in the topic (and Sumerian history/mythology in general). It seems that the best source of untranslated cuneiform would be to physically visit the Department of the Middle East at the British Museum (not sure if anybody can make an appointment for the cuneiform study rooms or what though...)

If you or anybody else were to find a collection/library of digitized cuneiform tablets, I would be very much interested myself, more so if there are any notes or commentary.

Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by khedoros1 on Thursday November 02, 2017 @04:41PM (#15614101)
This looks like it fits the general description: https://cdli.ucla.edu/

It looks like they've got images of tablets from about 30 institutions, organized by time period. I've found a few with transliterations, but information seems fragmentary. There are also a fair number of entries without images.

Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by dkersten on Thursday November 02, 2017 @05:40PM (#15614530)
Thanks
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by Ice_cream_suit on Friday November 03, 2017 @03:16AM (#15617213)
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by TeMPOraL on Friday November 03, 2017 @06:05AM (#15617937)
I still subscribe to theory that the pyramid was meant as a landing pad for starships.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by consp on Friday November 03, 2017 @06:32AM (#15618041)
Been watching too much stargate lately?
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by TeMPOraL on Friday November 03, 2017 @07:06AM (#15618199)
Been missing StarGate too much lately. It was a damn good show.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by samstave on Thursday November 02, 2017 @05:11PM (#15614329)
If they find anything - they will hide it and not tell anyone.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by et2o on Saturday November 04, 2017 @02:04PM (#15626158)
Who and why?
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by irrational on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:38PM (#15612454)
While we are imagining unlikely thing, I'm going to imagine there are instructions from aliens (yes, the same ones that actually built the pyramids, don't ya know) on how to build a faster than light drive.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by ImSkeptical on Thursday November 02, 2017 @03:03PM (#15613274)
But those instructions actually involve the assembly of an AI which develops nano technology, disassembles our world and solar system in order to build and dispatch pyramid assembling drones throughout the galaxy.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by qubex on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:43PM (#15613104)
Why is it unlikely? I’m certainly not suggesting aliens. Just the idea that if there is a chamber and it is unopened and contains non-stone artefacts (wood, food, fibres, bone) we could finally carbon-date the structure and corroborate or refute the prevailing wisdom on the timeline.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by qubex on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:34PM (#15613007)
Edit: I meant to write “unopened”.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by the_rosentotter on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:38PM (#15612450)
It seems that peoples through the ages have respected the pyramids enough to leave them mostly intact and undisturbed, giving us the unique heritage that we have today. I can't help but contrast this with the British explorers who just started blowing through it with explosives and pulling stuff out wholesale.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by eponeponepon on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:13PM (#15612796)
Not at all. Most of the pyramids, and many many other burials were ransacked by graverobbers and scavengers in antiquity - in a lot of cases, even while there were still pharaohs. It's assumed that a lot of them were robbed immediately, by the same workers who built them - in fact, even as early as the Middle Kingdom, there was a thriving trade in robbed grave goods for the explicit purpose of reuse in another burial, so it's far from uncommon to find people interred with spells on papyri that are centuries older than them, but have had the original owner's name scratched out and the new one inserted. If anything, the respect shown for the Giza complex in the last hundred years or so is the exception in its history. Heck, one of the two smaller pyramids has a huge hole in the side from where a 16th or 17th century caliph tried to demolish it.

Essentially, humans have always been garbage.

Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by alexandersingh on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:59AM (#15617157)
Or, humans have always had to focus on their own self-preservation and only recently have we had the luxury to care for the past at the expense of the present.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by namarie on Friday November 03, 2017 @09:10AM (#15618884)
What good would destroying a pyramid do in regards for self-preservation?
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by triangleman on Sunday November 05, 2017 @01:39PM (#15630824)
There's gold in there!
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by FireBeyond on Thursday November 02, 2017 @04:36PM (#15614063)
> by the same workers who built them

who were, by and large, slaves ...

> Essentially, humans have always been garbage.

I don't really consider them too garbage-y for trying to give even a little F.U. to their masters.

Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by rafiki6 on Thursday November 02, 2017 @04:59PM (#15614243)
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by adrianratnapala on Thursday November 02, 2017 @10:21PM (#15616234)
If I remember my old books correctly, they were not slaves, they were peasants who were paying tax as labour instead of money or produce. Like conscription, but for civilian work.

So there is still compulsion here, and the workers would often have had similar emotions and incentives as slaves. The fact that the workers had more freedom probably gave them more ability to act on that than if they had been proper slaves.

Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by Bromskloss on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:34AM (#15617076)
> they were peasants who were paying tax as labour

When you put it like that, it sounds an awful lot like slavery.

Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by kagamine on Friday November 03, 2017 @05:04AM (#15617681)
Sounds like my job, my life. IN the grand scheme of things, nothing much has changed in millennia.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by megaman22 on Thursday November 02, 2017 @01:49PM (#15612561)
The Pyramids were originally cased in a layer of white limestone. Almost all of that is gone, since, if I recall, they were small enough that they could be carted away, unlike the granite that remains.

Monumental buildings almost always end up being wholesale building supply once they aren't revered and maintained.

Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by InclinedPlane on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:03PM (#15612695)
Almost every pyramid was looted nearly immediately, and the limestone covers on the pyramids were stolen long ago. Most of the reason the pyramids remain as they are is because they are made of very large blocks which are inordinately difficult to move and impractical to use for other purposes.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by the_rosentotter on Thursday November 02, 2017 @05:03PM (#15614268)
I'm aware that they were subjected to grave robbing. That seems like more low-level thieving than actual organized pillaging though, which required destroying structure to pull off, as evidenced by the fact that the most important artifacts, including the riches of the burial chamber and the sarcophagus itself, were still there until modern times.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by notahacker on Friday November 03, 2017 @07:22AM (#15618262)
We have written confessions of systematic grave robbing from the time of the Pharoahs, and successive generations of Pharoahs came up with ever-more-elaborate schemes to make tombs more difficult to break into, none of which succeeded.

Finding Tutenkhamen's tomb that hadn't been systematically cleared of all its contents was unprecedented but owed nothing to being protected by any elaborate superstructure that needed destroying, and everything to do with it being concealed by mudslides and workers' huts rather than the sort of superstructure graverobbers were used to partially dismantling to find a way in.

Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by eponeponepon on Thursday November 02, 2017 @06:18PM (#15614814)
At Giza? No, the burials were long since disrupted by the middle ages. I don't think there's even much solid agreement that there ever even was a burial in the Great Pyramid.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by KGIII on Friday November 03, 2017 @02:40PM (#15621360)
I think you'll find the sarcophagus is there because it is too large to be stolen. As I recall, we've never even found human remains in the pyramids themselves.
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by powertower on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:39PM (#15613061)
Also the giant monolith/megalith structures in Russia are out of this world.

Personally I think some of the footage and pictures of them are more impressive than the pyramids. The size of the blocks compared to a human is just incredible.

Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by HatchedLake721 on Thursday November 02, 2017 @02:43PM (#15613103)
Like?
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by danbruc on Thursday November 02, 2017 @03:21PM (#15613417)
Gornaya Shoria megaliths [1] maybe? But they are not man-made.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gornaya_Shoria_megaliths

Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by jrimbault on Friday November 03, 2017 @10:28AM (#15619418)
The Talk section of that article is really two men's polite war
Re:'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza by bromuro on Friday November 03, 2017 @06:00AM (#15617913)
In Sardinia, Italy, there are also hundreds of neolithic sites called Domus de Janas (House of the Fairies) dating back to 3000 BC. Some of them are quite impressive: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domus_de_Janas