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Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by Animats on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:35PM (#15571027)
Don't worry. Programming is becoming a blue collar job.

Being an "electrician" in 1880 was a big deal, the high technology job of its day. By 1920 it was a union blue collar job. That's programming.

Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by rossdavidh on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:07PM (#15571276)
I think that programming is splitting into several different fields. Some of it is rather like 1920's electrician jobs, which by the way were good middle class jobs that people could be proud of being able to do. But other kinds of programming are not blue collar yet. I think it's rather like how electrical engineering and electrician split into separate fields; it's not like electrical engineers ceased to exist, it's that now you people who could actually specialize in doing electrical work.
Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by hkmurakami on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:40PM (#15571560)
Afaik electrician is still a solid blue collar job?
Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by megaman22 on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:48PM (#15571628)
Electrician can be a very good blue collar job - if I hadn't gone to college, I'd have thought real hard about doing electrical in a trade school. I'd be sort of surprised to see it significantly automated any time in the near future, as well.
Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by scientistem on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:11PM (#15571819)
I wouldn’t even call it a blue collar job: the labor isn’t very intense, the pay is excellent, and it’s very stable; easily salariable compared to seasonal and contract work (though you can contract if you want).
Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by WalterBright on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:50PM (#15571641)
An electrician in 1880 did a lot of design work. One of 1920 (and today) does it by rote - they just follow canned rules and procedures already worked out. It's all coded into regulations, too, so there's little flexibility.

An electrical engineer, on the other hand, does design work.

Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by ghaff on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:58PM (#15572180)
>they just follow canned rules and procedures already worked out

To a degree. I get the contrast you're drawing and don't really disagree. But an electrician (like plumbers/contractors/etc.), especially working in an older building, has to deal with a lot of unexpected circumstances that have to be dealt with. There's a lot of problem-solving involved.

Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by WalterBright on Friday October 27, 2017 @07:03PM (#15572947)
Sure, there's some creating work in dealing with obstacles. But let me give another example. My house was wired up by an experienced electrician. I noticed he was running the phone wires through the same holes as the A/C wires. I told him that would not work, as the phone wires would pick up the 60 Hz hum by inductive coupling. He had never heard of the term "inductive coupling". He had NO IDEA what I was talking about. If I let him continue, the phones in my house would all hum.

So I told him I'd do the low voltage wiring myself. Those have to be separated from the A/C wires by a couple feet, and only cross them at 90 degree angles. No hum.

Inductive coupling is something a first year EE student would learn about.

Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by thewarrior on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:56PM (#15571689)
Could nt that happen to programming as well ?
Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by geebee on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:34PM (#15572003)
I've been programming for about 16 years. Started with C++, doing my own memory management for routine tasks. Later, started abstractions like garbage collection, jdbc, and servlets.

Of course, the day comes when the high level abstractions of your youth are referred to as "low level". And while that may seem silly to people who write machine code, there is something low level-ish about managing your own database connections and/or writing your own resource pool.

Almost everything we do is routinely turned into, well, routine work. Rails automated a lot, but not all, of what I did. I'm tiptoeing close to a "no true scotsman" argument here, but I'd almost define "programming" as writing code that hasn't been automated yet - which is why the job of being a programmer won't be automated.

Here's why I think my argument is almost, but not quite, a "no true scotsman" fallacy. I have a lot of trouble seeing how anything could replace human programmers, but that's the rub - the way it happens, should it happen, will surprise me. The analogy I have in my head is someone who is trying to create a mechanical turk to replace a symphony orchestra. A wind up doll to play a violin, trumpet, piano. There are a few successes, with self playing pianos, but overall, it appears to be distant.

And then... an unanticipated concept, one that blows your mind: it turns out that you can actually capture music, exactly as it was played, with a device that will project that sound back just as it was made the first time. You can play the symphony once, and listen to it an unlimited number of times. And just like that, live music played by a human goes from 99% of all music heard to well below 1%.

We could very well be replaced, but not as we are. I think it'll be something different, that provides what we provided, in a way that makes us largely unnecessary.

Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by banderman on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:12PM (#15571826)
Isn't that what being a Software Engineer or Software Architect is?
Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by WalterBright on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:58PM (#15571711)
I'm in the compiler business. Compilers handle an increasing amount of routine programming tasks, but programmers respond to that by making more complex programs, so the creative input needed by programmers is about the same.
Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by thewarrior on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:10PM (#15571806)
What do you think about the API ification of things because of AWS or Google Spanner database . Everything is abstracted away so you're just gluing things together.

Its not AI but it turns even complex projects into things that anyone can learn to do in months . I can't imagine this remaining so well paying in such circumstances.

Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by nostrademons on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:18PM (#15571877)
The complex design work goes into creatively gluing these APIs together to form new product categories. If you don't need to spend time worrying how to fit bits on disk, you can spend that mental energy searching for and solving problems that would've been too complex without the APIs.

Smart programmers move up the value chain as needed so that they're still doing work that can't be done easily with an existing product.

Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by thewarrior on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:22PM (#15571913)
Good point .

So that begs the question , what are some of the things that are right now higher up the value chain ?

Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by WalterBright on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:57PM (#15572171)
Writing a better compiler :-)
Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by michaelchisari on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:58PM (#15571709)
It could and it should.
Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by ericmcer on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:34PM (#15572002)
Electricians sort of transitioned from design/implementation roles into maintenance/installation roles. This does not really map well with programming because many times doing maintenance on an established project can be as or more difficult than the initial implementation. Having a large number of basically trained programmers maintaining systems that better programmers have built won't really work.

Programming has not gotten easier really, I don't think it will ever be blue collar. Even though development will get easier as technology and tools improve, the bar for what good is is set by our peers. Knowing some html/css/Js was a totally acceptable skillset in 2000, but now you need to have some backend and networking or design/ui/ux skills to be relevant.

Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by bigmario on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:04PM (#15571252)
Lots of people make this claim with no evidence. It's understandable to feel insecure about future career prospects in our fast-changing industry, but honestly I'll believe it when I see it.
Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by maxxxxx on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:06PM (#15571764)
I bet a lot of the frontend guys will have problems when someone comes out with something like Visual Basic for the web. It's harder now to develop a LOB app than when it was twenty years ago and I think this will change at some point. Same for a lot of "data scientists". Unless you are on the forefront of development there will be more and more tools that make the data accessible to regular people instead of having to go to data scientists.

Yes, software developers will always be in demand. The profession stays but the people in it get quickly marked as obsolete and replaced by new people.

Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by Daishiman on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:56PM (#15572533)
The promise of visual designers has existed for the past 30 years and it has always blown up spectacularly because everything that can be made to conform to canned design principles is already there, and everything else actually requires non-trivial knowledge that is not easily automated.

Design guidelines change too, and accommodating existing software to new designs is not automatable either.

And for data science? Simple correlations are trivial, but doing useful data science requires domain understanding of the business and products and factors such as seasonality, markets and so on.

Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by brailsafe on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:18PM (#15571875)
As someone who got into frontend as a more specific discipline from more generalized design/dev, I can say that my experience does comport. I don't know if I'd call it "blue collar" necessarily, but I'm looking for a job and it's tough to find the inspiration.
Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by meredydd on Friday October 27, 2017 @06:44PM (#15572822)
> when someone comes out with something like Visual Basic for the web

Obligatory plug: Check out https://anvil.works - it is exactly that! Drag and drop UI, Python front-end and back-end, database integration...the whole deal.

Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by maxxxxx on Friday October 27, 2017 @07:12PM (#15572999)
This looks pretty good. I can see it work for a lot of in-house applications.
Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by ryuker16 on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:40PM (#15572441)
We had that for frontend for many years

It's called Adobe Muse.

Demand is still high as ever.

Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by Animats on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:13PM (#15571321)
Apply for a job as a PHP programmer and see what you're offered.
Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by graphitezepp on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:21PM (#15571409)
Are you suggesting the fact that there is not much PHP work around means that the career prospects of the field are in decline? One language is not indicative of the whole, this comment is not evidence either. And besides you seem to be assuming both that legacy work does not happen and that people can't adapt. I know both a fresh out of school person who does cobol and a mid 50s JavaScript UX person who started on punch cards.
Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by francisofascii on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:08PM (#15571786)
Actually, there is a quite a bit of jobs that require PHP considering the plethora of sites built on Drupal and WordPress. I guess it depends where you live.
Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by scientistem on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:12PM (#15571824)
I actually intepreted that as the jobs require a very low level of skill and provide low compensation—exactly what you’d expect from making a job “blue collar”.
Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by thesagan on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:49PM (#15572112)
Most of the skill in that area is not working with the CMS but doing the crazy complex integrations that clients ask of them. (And of saving the work of not-as-skilled/too-skilled-for-their-own-good crowd.)

Maybe more of a light blue collar.

Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by michaelchisari on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:35PM (#15572019)
You can make very good money as a consultant in the PHP/Joomla/Drupal world if you are professional, reliable, and write solid, bug free code.

Nothing you make will be particularly interesting, but you will make an excellent living for yourself.

Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by scientistem on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:51PM (#15572128)
That is true, but you’re focusing on the php part rather than the median php position part, which is the relevant point to the discussion.
Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by akhilcacharya on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:33PM (#15571511)
Not at Facebook.
Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by falcor84 on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:49PM (#15571121)
I don't see that happening; there's no sense for large companies to hire lots of blue-collar programmers, when they could just automate any of the routine repetitive work.
Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by ng12 on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:04PM (#15571247)
What happens when we eventually train AI to write code for us? Then "programming" would be a lot more like data entry than creative work.
Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by rossdavidh on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:05PM (#15571262)
You'll notice that the more real-world experience people have with AI, the less likely they think this is any time in our lifetimes.
Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by jpindar on Friday October 27, 2017 @05:09PM (#15572250)
That's what the people who created Fortran thought. Instead, the types of programs people wrote became more complex once they didn't have to write them in assembler.
Re:Rise of the Creative Class Worked a Little Too Well by kmicklas on Friday October 27, 2017 @03:08PM (#15571284)
CS education will have to improve dramatically both in reach and quality for that to be possible. Doesn't seem likely for many decades.