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Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by bitL on Thursday October 26, 2017 @09:31PM (#15564883)
If I want to play games on Linux in the same quality/speed as on Windows, I have to use NVidia. If I want to do Deep Learning in Linux, I have to use NVidia. If I want to plug 3x 4k monitors on Linux, I have to use NVidia. If you can't come to agreement with them, what am I supposed to do?
Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by shmerl on Thursday October 26, 2017 @09:40PM (#15564926)
> If I want to play games on Linux in the same quality/speed as on Windows, I have to use NVidia.

Not anymore. AMD/Mesa are already competitive enough, and are getting better fast. I was using Nvidia myself as well, until around the time Polaris cards came out, and Mesa was bumped to 17.x. That's when things really started to get good with AMD.

And in the overall integration sense, it's like night and day. Nvidia is never going to reach it with their blob approach. Seamless upgrades, proper framebuffer, proper KMS/DRM, no constant screen tearing, Wayland support, GALLIUM_HUD, you name it. I wouldn't go back to Nvidia now (and I do all my gaming on Linux).

Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday October 26, 2017 @09:35PM (#15564898)
You just play games at marginally inferior quality. Our new work on Sway also will let you use multiple GPUs without any proprietary interfaces, so you can do 3x 4K on AMD too. Regarding Deep Learning, that's too bad. If you can afford a 3x 4K setup though you can probably afford to have a Nvidia GPU for Deep Learning and an AMD GPU for your desktop.

There are compromises you can make, most of them easy. None of this is my problem as the maintainer of Sway.

Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by falcolas on Thursday October 26, 2017 @09:48PM (#15564977)
> None of this is my problem as the maintainer of Sway

So, in short, you're firing your Nvidia users? Sometimes it has to be done, but you'll have to be very clear that you don't want Nvidia users.

Passive-aggressive attacks in an indirectly linked blog post against the userbase and Nvidia themselves are not sufficient, you will have to just be explicit about it in your GitHub README.

Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday October 26, 2017 @09:50PM (#15564991)
Well, I'm firing my Nvidia proprietary driver users. Really, I never "hired" them in the first place. The ones who use nouveau are cool in my book. I don't feel the need to call this out in the README.

Also, this article contains pretty forwardly agressive attacks, I think.

Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by Qwertious on Friday October 27, 2017 @11:29AM (#15569335)
>Well, I'm firing my Nvidia proprietary driver users. Really, I never "hired" them in the first place. The ones who use nouveau are cool in my book. I don't feel the need to call this out in the README.

Upon thinking about this, it's kind of like listing dependencies. I think you should make it clear in the README. I don't think the blog post is relevant in this context, as people likely won't read your blog post before installing Sway (and how would they know to do so, anyway?).

Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by seba_dos1 on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:18PM (#15570357)
Shouldn't it be Nvidia who needs to write it in their README? It's them who are incompatible with everything else, not Sway or Kwin.
Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by SEJeff on Thursday October 26, 2017 @10:04PM (#15565070)
Your users (those with 4 x 30" monitors like me) will be firing you as well. It isn't my fault that Nvidia makes superior GPUs and writes shit software :)
Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday October 26, 2017 @10:06PM (#15565079)
I use 4 displays, 3x 1080p and 1x 4K. I'm happy to lose users who don't do their research and misportray the superiority of Nvidia, though.
Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by SEJeff on Thursday October 26, 2017 @10:10PM (#15565099)
I do CUDA work (OpenCL is close, but not nearly as powerful) along with run big monitors. I've done my research, and there is Nvidia, and inferior options.
Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by majewsky on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:39AM (#15566668)
A friend of mine is doing heavy CUDA work at the Helmholtz research center in Dresden, and at the same time he's desperately waiting for AMD Vega cards to be in stock somewhere so that he can build a desktop without shitty drivers.
Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by jhasse on Saturday October 28, 2017 @04:15AM (#15574418)
Reference Vega cards are available in stock. Check mindfactory.de for example.
Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by majewsky on Saturday October 28, 2017 @09:07AM (#15575022)
Yeah, but the reference coolers are apparently not very good. Yesterday evening, my friend was pondering if he could remove the reference cooler and install an aftermarket CPU cooler.
Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by bubblethink on Friday October 27, 2017 @12:01AM (#15565635)
>I do CUDA work (OpenCL is close, but not nearly as powerful)

Do you mean cuda as a language v/s the latest opencl spec as a language, or implementations ? No one other than Intel is even implementing and updating OpenCL really, and nvidia will always push CUDA over opencl for lock ins. Which is kind of the same thing as every other argument that you can make for nvidia.

Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by kbutler on Thursday October 26, 2017 @10:23PM (#15565178)
Depends on how you value Wayland support.

That said, if I were Nvidia, and the post was an example of "cooperating" and "working" with the Wayland developers, I don't think I'd go out of my way to cooperate.

Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by wizbright on Thursday October 26, 2017 @10:37PM (#15565254)
You can swap "Nvidia" and "Wayland developers" and still end up with an equally valid argument.
Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by kelnos on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:00AM (#15565827)
How so? The Wayland developers are pushing for open, unified standards that work across all chipsets. Nvidia is pushing for their own special snowflake implementation/interface, that no one else would or could use.

You can certainly make the swap and the sentence still makes sense and is factually correct, but the context matters.

Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by Sir_Cmpwn on Friday October 27, 2017 @08:23AM (#15567629)
I think he means that

>That said, if I were (the Wayland developers), and (witnessed how Nvidia is) "cooperating" and "working" with (us), I don't think I'd go out of my way to cooperate.

Is also a valid point.

Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by kelnos on Monday October 30, 2017 @06:04PM (#15589357)
Gah, I read it as the opposite, even though that was what the grandparent had already stated.
Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by shmerl on Thursday October 26, 2017 @10:21PM (#15565161)
How does using Vulkan for GPGPU today compare to using CUDA, I mean performance wise?
Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by bmon on Friday October 27, 2017 @06:25AM (#15567101)
>you're fired.

>nu-uh, I quit!

[dead]
Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by sctb on Saturday October 28, 2017 @11:02AM (#15575337)
Could you please not make personal attacks? They don't belong on Hacker News.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by abstractbeliefs on Thursday October 26, 2017 @10:03PM (#15565061)
For deep learning I can't specifically comment, but for GPGPU I can: give AMD your money and use OpenCL and the upcoming Vulkan.

It worked great for me, and given Nvidia deliberately de-rate their support for OpenCL to push CUDA, I feel it's important to signal with your money that given the choice between flexible and open standards vs. proprietary, I'll support openness.

Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by Luminarys on Thursday October 26, 2017 @09:58PM (#15565047)
With regards to Deep Learning, a recently released Keras backend[0] actually supports OpenCL with direct validation on a few AMD cards. I've been playing around with it for the past week or so and so far have had no issues with it, though I'm admittedly not doing anything too serious.

0. https://github.com/plaidml/plaidml

Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by shmerl on Thursday October 26, 2017 @09:52PM (#15564999)
> If I want to do Deep Learning in Linux, I have to use NVidia.

Why is that? What prevents you from using open APIs like Vulkan for GPGPU? Unless you rely on some CUDA only middleware of course.

Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by TomVDB on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:50AM (#15566004)
There is a huge amount of CUDA middleware while there is very little for OpenCL. In the case of deep learning, there's cuDNN which is highly optimized and used by all major frameworks. AMD has promised something equivalent, but a first version is very unlikely to have the same scope and features. (Nvidia probably does a large amount of dog fooding given their deep learning based automobile efforts.)

Using anything but Nvidia for deep learning is a great idea if you want to get noticed for not using Nvidia for deep learning, but it wouldn't be the smart thing to do if you want to actually get something done.

Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by gh02t on Thursday October 26, 2017 @11:40PM (#15565546)
CUDA has a strong grasp on a lot of the scientific market because Nvidia was ahead of the curve with CUDA initially and then has spent tons of money advertising and selling it to entrench it. To some degree it's a dev's own fault for getting sucked into a proprietary ecosystem, but ultimately "switch your code to something else" is not always a realistic option if you want to keep up with a community where CUDA is popular.

CUDA is not as dominant as it was at first now that there are serious alternatives, but Nvidia works hard (both carrot and stick) to keep you locked in. And their hardware and software tools genuinely do have great performance, even if they should be better if Nvidia was a bit less... well evil honestly.

Re:Sway 1.0 is not going to support the Nvidia proprietary d... by shmerl on Friday October 27, 2017 @12:10AM (#15565656)
Yeah, that's very Nvidia-like. Hopefully Vulkan based solutions will phase out CUDA lock-in in the future.