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Re:Announcement: RT and Sputnik Advertising by CalChris on Thursday October 26, 2017 @12:50PM (#15560648)
Please define whataboutism.
Re:Announcement: RT and Sputnik Advertising by grandalf on Thursday October 26, 2017 @01:02PM (#15560801)
> whataboutism

Counter-factual scenarios that reveal your opinion to be illogical and cherry-picked for some emotional reason? OK I'm guilty.

Re:Announcement: RT and Sputnik Advertising by DonHopkins on Thursday October 26, 2017 @05:35PM (#15563251)
I think you missed the joke: a Jeopardy reference, where you, Alex Trebek, just presented a textbook example of whataboutism, and CalChris was playing the role of the contestant by identifying what you just did in the form of a question.

To further ruin the joke by over-explaining it, he wasn't literally asking you to define whataboutism, because you'd just given an excellent example of it, so his question was rhetorical, and your answer was not only redundant but also incorrect.

Re:Announcement: RT and Sputnik Advertising by grandalf on Friday October 27, 2017 @10:56AM (#15568979)
Well, labeling someone’s comment with a buzzword is not really a counter-argument.

Your and his arguments could be labeled as “Tory” but it would be useless for me to point that out; id rather attempt to reach common ground or understanding.

Re:Announcement: RT and Sputnik Advertising by DonHopkins on Friday October 27, 2017 @12:49PM (#15570074)
You seem to have again missed the point that whataboutism isn't a valid counter argument.

You've also proven you don't know what the definition of whataboutism is. The fact that you don't happen to know the definition doesn't mean it's a "buzzword".

It's a logical fallacy particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda (which is the main point of this discussion).

Please look up the real definition before trying to incorrectly define it and confess to being guilty of it, because you don't even understand what you're confessing to.

The definition you gave was wrong, even though you are guilty of doing it yourself, and what you're doing is logically fallacious and intellectually dishonest.

Re:Announcement: RT and Sputnik Advertising by grandalf on Saturday October 28, 2017 @01:03AM (#15574052)
I think rather than using a silly made-up word like whataboutism you should simply call out someone's views or comment specifically for whatever logical error you think it contains.

I looked at the definition of whataboutism on Wikipedia, and now I think I understand what you are attempting to argue.

If person A says "Russia treats political enemies badly" and then person B replies "Well, the US puts its political enemies in Gitmo", you would call that a scenario where person B should have said something specifically to refute person A's statement, but instead made a parallel assertion that does not have any direct relation to the statement made by person A.

In your view, in order to refute the claim made by person A, someone would have to provide evidence that in fact Russia does not treat political enemies badly.

When someone is heavily partisan and makes the comment of person B above, the intent might be to deflect attention from person A's point. If you view person A and B as adversaries each trying to be objectively right in some highly logical world, then only a strict logical refutation of person A's point would suffice. The definition of whataboutism descries it as a logical fallacy, which is quite telling.

The truth is, both claims may be true. Person B's statement does not refute person A's statement, but it is not meant to. In reading through the comments that you and the other person claimed were whataboutism, I think your interpretation was that I was asking rhetorical questions that I thought had an obvious answer which should logically refute your assertion.

In fact, I was simply introducing a few scenarios that seem similar to me so that I could better understand how it was so easy for you both to make very broad (and seemingly impulsive) statements with strong implications about the "appropriate" political consequences of journalism.

I was hoping that one of you would explain to me some method of analysis that offered insight into all of those scenarios in addition to this Russia stuff.

It seems that you did not mean to make broad statements about journalism, only about RT specifically because RT is obviously guilty by virtue of its association with the Russian government.

To me that is not obvious, and so when I hear words used like "destabilization" or "terrorism" (these are both propaganda words and I heavily discount any statement containing either one) I have to wonder if perhaps the person making the argument has more of a persuasive motive than a desire to understand the situation or phenomenon in question.

Re:Announcement: RT and Sputnik Advertising by DonHopkins on Saturday October 28, 2017 @06:53AM (#15574693)
Rightfully accusing you of "whataboutism" IS simply calling out your views or comment specifically for whatever logical error it contains.

You're trolling in bad faith, demanding people provide specific examples then refusing to provide any yourself, and making untrue blanket statements about cable news and then trying to excuse your ignorance by claiming you don't actually know anything about cable news and never watch it. Yet you claim to know so much about RT, but never provide any links to back up any of your claims about it, even after being repeatedly asked. You said that Rachel Maddow's coverage of Flint was suspect because she made an overreach in her coverage of Russia, yet you have no problem with RT broadcasting Kremlin propaganda about Ukraine and don't think that reflects on their coverage of Flynt, to which you conveniently can't find any references, so we just have to take your word.

Your arguments have no merit, because you're being intellectually dishonest and trolling. And this is not the place for that. Take it somewhere else where it will be appreciated like /r/The_Donald, if you're not going to stop it here.

You're the one who didn't know what the word "whataboutism" meant, and who posted an incorrect definition, yet with your very own words, you actually explicitly confessed to being guilty of whataboutism: "OK I'm guilty."

So do you still stand by your confession that you're guilty of "whataboutism", now that you've bothered to skim (but not understand) one article about it?

There is nothing "silly" or "made up" about the word "whataboutism". That's proven by the fact that there is a 15 page Wikipedia article with 116 citations in it, including references to "whataboutism" in the Oxford Living Dictionaries and Cambridge Dictionary.

What's "made up" is your incorrect definition that you gave for it: "Counter-factual scenarios that reveal your opinion to be illogical and cherry-picked for some emotional reason".

What exactly is so "silly" about this -- it seems pretty serious and on-topic to me, comrade:

Tactic: Propaganda technique

Type: Tu quoque (appeal to hypocrisy)

Logic: Logical fallacy

Active period: Cold War–present

Prominent usage: Soviet Union propaganda, Russian propaganda, Russian annexation of Crimea, Russian military intervention in Ukraine, Donald Trump,

Related: Ad hominem, And you are lynching Negroes, The pot calling the kettle black, Red herring, The Mote and the Beam, Clean hands

Re:Announcement: RT and Sputnik Advertising by grandalf on Saturday October 28, 2017 @02:30PM (#15576149)
I don't think you read the comment to which you replied so I am not sure it's worthwhile to attempt to respond to this scattered rant.
Re:Announcement: RT and Sputnik Advertising by dang on Saturday October 28, 2017 @02:49PM (#15576235)
Would both of you please stop?
Re:Announcement: RT and Sputnik Advertising by DonHopkins on Saturday October 28, 2017 @11:37AM (#15575457)
Here's a way for you to try to understand what you just don't get about whataboutism:

Changing the subject is NOT winning the argument.

Get it?

Re:Announcement: RT and Sputnik Advertising by dang on Saturday October 28, 2017 @02:49PM (#15576233)
Would both of you please stop?
Re:Announcement: RT and Sputnik Advertising by CalChris on Thursday October 26, 2017 @01:09PM (#15560871)
Nope. The technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue.
Re:Announcement: RT and Sputnik Advertising by grandalf on Thursday October 26, 2017 @01:29PM (#15561092)
I'm asking you to clarify your view by presenting some scenarios that I consider relevant to the analysis of the main issue we are discussing.

Your point would be a lot stronger if you are able to convey a consistent world view for analyzing those scenarios, or by explaining how the scenarios are different. I mention them because I think they are similar and ought to be analyzed similarly, but I'm open to persuasion.

Re:Announcement: RT and Sputnik Advertising by CalChris on Thursday October 26, 2017 @03:08PM (#15562028)
No, you are not. First, there is an accepted meaning for destabilization. Wikipedia has a pretty good definition and it certainly doesn't match your changing the status quo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destabilisation

Secondly, your whataboutism is an effort to change the subject away from the topic, a private company concluding that it didn't want RT+Sputnik's advertising money. It then ventures into not very good equivocation (Judith Miller was not the Times; indeed, she was forced to resign by the Times).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Miller

Given this, I accept no burden of proof. It is what it is.

Re:Announcement: RT and Sputnik Advertising by grandalf on Thursday October 26, 2017 @05:46PM (#15563350)
If you read the Wikipedia definition you posted, the first definition is to undermine political power. That means the same thing as changing the status quo. Powerful interests by definition want the status quo to continue because it's what makes them powerful. When powerful interests talk of "change" it's not change that would endanger their power, hence it would not change the status quo in any significant way.

Of course Judith was forced to resign once the sloppy reporting was fact checked by people who did not work at the NYT. The NYT had to let Judith go to save face after it helped defeat the anti-war activists and other people who were cautious to believe George W. Bush's claims about Saddam.

Keep in mind that for a major company like the NYT firing one reporter is not a big deal at all. It should be shocking that simply firing one person is enough to make the journalistic scandal of the millennium go away.

Re:Announcement: RT and Sputnik Advertising by CalChris on Thursday October 26, 2017 @06:29PM (#15563779)
You are still misreading the definition, intentionally it would appear. And again, this is a misdirection from the topic of the post.
Re:Announcement: RT and Sputnik Advertising by grandalf on Thursday October 26, 2017 @11:35PM (#15565524)
It's actually not a misdirection, it's the main point. The crux of the issue is whether you define certain journalistic behaviors as being bad/wrong just because they threaten the status quo power structure of the US.

If you think about it, your assertion that the alleged political motives of RT are inappropriate hinges upon your judgment that it is in Russia's national interest to undermine the legitimacy of powerful interests in the US, and (apparently) thus to weaken the US or put it at some sort of disadvantage.

I realize you are convinced that my views and comments fit some schema you feel duty-bound to try to refute, but I think that if you examine your belief system on the matter you will find that you simply feel loyalty to the status quo power structure in the US, which is closely aligned with its government. Thus you oppose any sort of disruptive or revolutionary behavior or ideas that might threaten this status quo that you are fond of.

Note that the status quo in the US is corporatism and militarism, and that there is really not a leftist movement of any stature in the US. HRC and Trump are both slight permutations of a more authoritarian version of Bush or Obama, since the nation has turned more toward authoritarianism as time has gone on.

Only if you view this authoritarian, militaristic course of action as being strongly in the US national interest is it possible to believe with full certainty that RT publishing stories that might appeal to the American far left or the most disempowered Americans is a bad thing. For only then does the amplification of those ideas/movements, etc., threaten anything that is a force of good.

In my view, the biggest weakness in the US is that there is very little dissent and we put far too much trust in our leaders, and apply far too little scrutiny to our institutions (public and private), allowing significant diversion of resources to various groups who benefit from the status quo.

Politicians should fear journalists and should fear the public finding out about their excesses, their side deals, and the true stories of how they became millionaires on $150K public servant salaries. If RT helps expose these fraudulent people for what they are, the US will be far better off for it. And yes, a consequence of some toppling of the existing power structures would probably be less global militarism, but I think it's hard to argue that our laying waste to so many countries abroad is remotely in the US national interest, but no disrespect intended if you do feel strongly that Trump's action in Yemen, etc., is bold and necessary to the world order.

Re:Announcement: RT and Sputnik Advertising by DonHopkins on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:01PM (#15570191)
Your entire main point has been to intentionally misdirect from the topic.

Go learn the real definitions of the terms you're tossing around, instead of making up your own.

You're the one who actually claims to be guilty of whataboutism: "OK I'm guilty."

Are you proud of that? Do you wear it as a badge of honor? Those were your own words. Don't contradict yourself now by denying that you're not trying to misdirect.

Re:Announcement: RT and Sputnik Advertising by grandalf on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:43PM (#15572081)
I don't think that considering analogous or similar scenarios when trying to understand an issue is a bad thing, no matter what juvenile label you put on it.
Re:Announcement: RT and Sputnik Advertising by DonHopkins on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:59PM (#15572184)
You still don't understand what the term "whataboutism" means. And now you've descended to calling a word names like "buzzword" and "juvenile". You can't hurt a word's feelings by calling it names, but you can learn what it means. So why don't you look up what the word means before confessing it applies to you, then calling it names?
Re:Announcement: RT and Sputnik Advertising by grandalf on Saturday October 28, 2017 @02:32PM (#15576155)
I have responded in detail to the accusation you made of whataboutism in one of my other replies. It only applies when someone is a partisan trying to distract or persuade in an argument against another partisan.

As I pointed out in that more detailed comment, I was asking some questions about similar scenarios to try to understand the analytical approach that you are applying that lets you confidently judge certain journalism as harmful.