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Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by platz on Wednesday October 25, 2017 @01:33PM (#15552138)
Skeptical. Previously the brain was a machine consisting of drives and pulleys, just like the state of technology of the day. Now the brain is a computer that runs deep learning models. It would be one thing to just say the cortex has columns. It's another to go on and model what those columns are doing with linear algebra. The coincidence that this picture emerges at the same time as current fads in tech is too great to ignore

I am more interested in the work that is identifying different kinds of cells e.g place cells

Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by freeflight on Wednesday October 25, 2017 @02:07PM (#15552513)
> The coincidence that this picture emerges at the same time as current fads in tech is too great to ignore

It's no coincidence, I see it as a kind of reframing the issue from a different perspective/approach and for that, we use whatever seems the best framework of explanation we have at hand during that time. Gotta start somewhere, can't try to paint a picture without a frame and at least some colors.

One can easily see the evolution how the frameworks we use keep getting more complex, from drives and pulleys to computers and NNs, so there clearly is some progress in how we are trying to describe the workings of the brain/consciousness.

In the end, it's also about what's the actual goal here: Trying to understand the human brain/consciousness or trying to artificially create "consciousness" or rather something resembling it. The later doesn't necessarily require the former.

Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by rhyolight_ on Wednesday October 25, 2017 @02:55PM (#15553049)
Not consciousness, but intelligence. Big difference.
Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by cgmg on Wednesday October 25, 2017 @10:20PM (#15555869)
Not sure why you were downvoted. It's important to keep the two terms separate for the sake of discourse, even if "ultimately" they turn out to be the same.

Can something be more conscious but less intelligent than something else, or viceversa? We don't know for sure yet.

Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by freeflight on Thursday October 26, 2017 @06:30AM (#15557687)
Are there commonly agreed definitions for those terms in the AI/ML community? I don't know, that's why I'm never sure what terms to use.
Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by amthewiz on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:27PM (#15571940)
Cognitive scientists define consciousness as the ability to have subjective experiences. The definition is not mathematically concrete, but sufficient to differentiate from intelligence.
Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by analogic on Wednesday October 25, 2017 @07:12PM (#15555089)
Is it? Personal theory is consciousness scales, like we're more conscious than a bug, but a bug still definitely conscious.

Then like A.I. overlords / borg hive mind more conscious still.

Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by namlem on Friday October 27, 2017 @09:54AM (#15568248)
How far down does the scale go? Are brainless animals like oysters conscious? What about the mycelium network underneath a forest?
Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by analogic on Saturday October 28, 2017 @04:41PM (#15576689)
Well maybe better way to state, less 'conscious' and more 'things they're conscious of.'
Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by gnaritas on Wednesday October 25, 2017 @10:45PM (#15555967)
Maybe it does, but does intelligence require consciousness?
Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by aminorex on Thursday October 26, 2017 @12:42PM (#15560545)
And: Is the question empirical or analytic? It is hard to discuss such matters without an agreed framework, definitions. The definitions for these terms are a long-standing analytic conundrum.

Abstractly, it is hard to understand how any performance could require consciousness unless consciousness is defined as a class of performance. If it is, then the question boils down to "Is performance class I a proper subset of performance class C?" Which is, prima facie, an analytic question.

Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by 21 on Wednesday October 25, 2017 @06:54PM (#15554994)
Previously the world was made from Earth, Water, Fire and Air. Then quarks and electrons. Now they are talking about how the entire universe is a computer, and how each Plank area is just a qubit.

The coincidence that this picture emerges at the same time as current fads in tech is too great to ignore.

Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by platz on Wednesday October 25, 2017 @07:01PM (#15555037)
I agree, it is suspicious, though let's distinguish between hard science and soft sciences, and between observation and theory
Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by platz on Wednesday October 25, 2017 @01:44PM (#15552245)
Alternatively if your real goal is just to develop some novel ML techniques, it would be better to not make claims about how the brain works and instead just try to draw inspiration using these thought experiments more as a 'muse'
Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by evv on Wednesday October 25, 2017 @05:08PM (#15554281)
> The coincidence that this picture emerges at the same time as current fads in tech is too great to ignore

Neural networks weren't nearly as much of a fad back in 2004 when Hawkins published On Intelligence. They did a fantastic job of illustrating how the neocortex may be a hierarchy of these pattern recognizers (columns). It's a highly engaging read!

Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by heavenlyblue on Wednesday October 25, 2017 @02:39PM (#15552869)
Unfortunately you're skeptical since you're mistaking philosophy for science.

Here: [https://arxiv.org/pdf/1706.06208.pdf], for example - they use deep learning models in order to classify the behaviour of in vivo neurons.

Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by sigi45 on Wednesday October 25, 2017 @02:41PM (#15552891)
I do believe that our understanding on how our brain works is very close to what ML is doing.

There is probably a lot to learn about the underlying core structure but the basics will not change that much anymore.

Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by varjag on Wednesday October 25, 2017 @06:13PM (#15554766)
In the sense that there are neurons firing off each other sure. But it was known (and modelled in hardware) since early 1950s.

There is however a qualitative difference in the topology and function, or our very modest wetware wouldn't have been able to outperform about every deep learning model out there.

Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by nategri on Wednesday October 25, 2017 @04:20PM (#15553795)
Sax Russell, is that you?

A practically identical train of thought from that character shows up in one of KSR's Mars books. Alway found it an excellent point.

Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by Tactic on Wednesday October 25, 2017 @04:46PM (#15554108)
Also laid out quite well in the 1990 movie "Mindwalk". [1]

A movie still worth watching even though it is dated.

1. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100151/?ref_=nv_sr_3

Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by alphydan on Wednesday October 25, 2017 @02:16PM (#15552627)
Do you have a reference for "when the brain was drives and pulleys"? I've never heard of such a theory.
Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by Eddh on Wednesday October 25, 2017 @02:27PM (#15552746)
I think he's referring to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanism_(philosophy)

In particular, this Descartes quote "I should like you to consider that these functions (including passion, memory, and imagination) follow from the mere arrangement of the machine’s organs every bit as naturally as the movements of a clock or other automaton follow from the arrangement of its counter-weights and wheels."

Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by thwd on Wednesday October 25, 2017 @03:16PM (#15553208)
> place cells

Suiting, given that your username means "place" in German :)

Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by pault on Wednesday October 25, 2017 @02:59PM (#15553080)
I'm not an expert, but isn't the causality reversed? Neural Nets were developed based on research of the physical structures in the brain, right? If that's the case, it makes sense to make analogies between the two systems.
Re:Why Does the Neocortex Have Columns? A Theory of Learning... by bbctol on Wednesday October 25, 2017 @05:14PM (#15554334)
Yes and no. Neural nets are somewhat inspired by neurons, but it's a pretty loose relation, and the more NNs improve, the less similar to the brain they look. Individual neurons are much more complex than the nodes of a neural network, and even if research into NNs provides insight into the way the brain works, it may be that the analogues of NN nodes are clusters or regions of neurons, or something more mathematically abstract.