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Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by B1FF_PSUVM on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @04:31AM (#15540087)
> a luxury for the rich

Parents of children under 12 should also be given a pass.

(Unless outsourcing the population is a deliberate tactic, of course.)

Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by slackingoff2017 on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @07:01AM (#15540686)
I used to live on the east coast and saw kids riding the subway all the time. It's no different than taking them into a store.

A bonus of public transport is that you can let your kids do whatever once they hit 13. There's always a few awkward years where they can basically care for themselves but can't drive.

Today's parents are way too paranoid. My mom grew up in the country and back then all the kids were driving by 12 even in town. I think modern age limits are more about making sure you can get charges to stick in court than a safety issue

Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by pmontra on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @05:15AM (#15540268)
It depends.

I used to walk to school alone when I was little. When I was a little older I walked my younger brother to his school, then I walked to mine. My parents didn't need a car to do that for us.

However all of us used a car to go shopping once a week. A four people family buys an incredible amount of stuff. Sometimes I walked with my mother to small shops to buy fresh food during the week.

We also walked to health care centers. Everything was in a 20, maybe 30 minutes range.

If cities are planned to place homes close to important locations there is little need for cars.

Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by Kluny on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @05:26AM (#15540320)
If I had kids under 12, I'd be all about grocery delivery. In my town you can order groceries online and delivery is about 5 bucks if your purchase is over $50 - not taskrabbit or anything, but the store's own delivery service. I'd go that way in a minute over stuffing kids into shoes and clothes and an SUV for something that should be a 30 minute job.
Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by giancarlostoro on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @07:25AM (#15540784)
I've heard (in some places) in Mexico you can have groceries delivered to you from Walmart[0]. I was told about it, but after finding that article it seems a Walmart owned business, mind you this article is from 2014, and I heard about this in 2007 ~ 2008 from someone who was living in Mexico at the time. It is very interesting to see businesses other than food places deliver goods.

http://www.theretailingmanagement.com/?p=317

Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by icebraining on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @07:31AM (#15540805)
Yeah, delivery for the packaged stuff and walking/biking for the fresh groceries is nice. A problem with delivery, besides price, is that some stores still require a large time window. Being stuck at home from 9h-13h every Saturday would suck.
Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by markdown on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @05:47AM (#15540413)
In Japan kids as young as five take the train to school alone. There's even a show called My First Errand about this:

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2015/09/why-are-littl...

Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by lhopki01 on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @05:39AM (#15540376)
What exactly is it about children under the age of 12 that requires a car?
Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by orless on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @07:01AM (#15540684)
I'm a father of two boys (8 and 5 yo) and we live in a small village (Ober-Erlenbach) next to a sattelite city (Bad Homburg) close to a big city (Frankfurt). We could not get along without a car (actually we own two cars).

The younger child goes to a kindergarten on the opposite end of Bad Homburg. That's 40 minutes with the bus one direction. No, there was no option of a kindergarten closer to our house. There was no option at all, you just take it where you get place.

The younger child has an illness and we have to bring him to a therapy at least once a week. That's in a hospital in another sattelite city on the opposite end of Frankfurt. Two hours with bus one direction.

The older child has allergy treatment in another hospital in Frankfurt. One and a quater an hour with public transport.

And these are just a few examples.

Without a car my wife would probably have to stay home just to manage children.

To answer your question - children introduce spatial responsibilities we you can't typically efficiently manage without a car.

Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by astura on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @07:35AM (#15540824)
I don't see how that's unique to children, all sorts of life situations require spacial responsibilities. I could write the same thing about my own medical appointments and I don't have children whereas my grandparents had ten (10) children and never owned a car in their lives.

The original thought was "everyone should be able to get everywhere they want to go easily without owning a car so a personal automobile should be considered a luxury." You're describing a situation where the first criteria was not met so the second, of course, won't follow. So your situation doesn't apply and it doesn't take away from the original idea.

Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by orless on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @02:34PM (#15544021)
I have replied to "What exactly is it about children under the age of 12 that requires a car?", I did not say it is unique to children. But children is a big factor. We did not really needed a car before we had children. Now we need two cars.

"Everyone should be able to get everywhere they want to go easily without owning a car so a personal automobile should be considered a luxury" is a nice thought, no objections.

So how about we'll talk about "owning a car ... should be considered a luxury" first when "everyone should be able to get everywhere they want to go easily" is implemented? Because it's pretty far from my reality.

Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by lhopki01 on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @06:20PM (#15545711)
Had a quick look at the map and it seems Ober-Erlenbach to other other side of Bad Homburg is only 10km. That's not even a half hour cycle for an adult.

It also looks like Ober-Erlenbach and Nieder-Erlenbach are the only two villages and twos around Frankfurt that don't have a train station to Frankfurt.

Almost every reason I've ever seen given for needing a car have to do with deciding to live somewhere with terrible public transport or lack of public infrastructure nearby.

Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by icebraining on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @07:26AM (#15540787)
You're right. That said, ideally the government could work to reduce those exceptional needs, like having more kindergartens or providing transport for medical care.
Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by fwn on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @12:15PM (#15542729)
...which is what some government's do through the provision of an environment in which people can afford to own cars.

The argument that there are currently great reasons for automotive mobility isn't affected by the notion that a set of imagined circumstances could enable people to stop being reliant on cars in the future.

Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by icebraining on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @12:31PM (#15542865)
Yes, I fully agree, that's why I started my post with "you're right".
Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by orless on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @02:22PM (#15543906)
The goverment could do all those things but the reality is, if you don't live in a city and/or have kids, you need a car, period.
Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by whiskers08xmt on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @04:52AM (#15540167)
Why is it necessary to have car if you have kids? It's quite possible to get around with kids, if the city is built for it.
Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by orless on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @07:05AM (#15540701)
Not every city is built for it. And not everybody lives in a city built for it. I live in a village 25km away from Frankfurt, there is no way you could get around here without a car.
Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by whiskers08xmt on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @09:12AM (#15541238)
Oh absolutely, I should have worded that more clearly. What I meant was, that metropolitan areas should aim to make it possible to get around with kids, instead of having to make tax exceptions for people with kids.
Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by orless on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @02:51PM (#15544191)
What suprizes me is that you ask "why is it necessary to have car if you have kids?" and when I answer why you switch to theoritizing about how the world should be.

So either we discuss the reality where the next available pediatrician is in the next city (1h with two busses, imagine this trip with a sick child on your hands).

Or we discuss the fantasy world of "everyone should be able to get everywhere they want to go easily". But then stop asking, what is it about children that you need a car.

Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by ricardobeat on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @05:03AM (#15540222)
Kids can walk, when not young enough for a trolley. My 5-year old just cycled 4km with me this weekend.
Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by mantas on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @05:48AM (#15540417)
Kids can not only walk, but walk alone too. I was going to elementary school on my own when I was 7. So did my classmates. I used to cycle all around by the age of 10.

It sucks that today youngsters are treated as dumb. Even though the world is getting safer and safer.

Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by krtkush on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @06:18AM (#15540534)
Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by orless on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @07:04AM (#15540694)
My 5yo goes to a kindergarten which is 7km away. I'm sure he'll be delighted to walk that distance. Five days a week.
Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by icebraining on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @07:38AM (#15540837)
Have you considered a bike with a second seat? I'm honestly just curious, not criticizing your choice.
Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by orless on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @02:19PM (#15543875)
That would be ca. 30 minutes cycling one direction, then another 20 minutes to the train station where I need to catch my train. 50% of the route on country roads where overtaking trucks are great funs. With a lot of rainy days from October till April and a few days of snow in winter months.

So no, I did not consider biking with a second seat. It is completely unrealistic.

Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by icebraining on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @03:04PM (#15544302)
Thanks for indulging my curiosity :)

Yeah, cycling near trucks is terrible, I wouldn't do it either.

Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by orless on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @03:09PM (#15544336)
And definitely not with a child.
Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by icebraining on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @03:10PM (#15544352)
For sure.
Re:Singapore to Stop Adding Cars in February 2018 by fh973 on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @05:45AM (#15540405)
My 5 year old did a 25km tour on her bike this summer. Kids are very different, in both directions.