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Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by Nition on Monday October 23, 2017 @11:40PM (#15539024)
Capacitive buttons are a plague, man. Even the cheap new stoves have them now. Monitors and TVs have had them for a while. Cars are going for touch displays. There's a delay, they don't work every time, and you can't feel them out.

Are they cheaper? I don't understand the point of them in the cases where they're literally just replacing a real button. The worst is when they don't even indicate clearly where the buttons actually are.

Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by shakna on Monday October 23, 2017 @11:52PM (#15539072)
> Are they cheaper?

Not generally, by neither are they more expensive generally.

However, there's a large section of consumers that see that sort of thing and somehow assume it means the product is of higher quality, or that's what comes up in the marketing meetings I've had to sit through whilst advocating for mechanical switches.

Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by learc83 on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @12:41AM (#15539265)
They are definitely cheaper most of the time. They are often just a trace on a PCB.

Product designers hate mechanical switches because they are almost always the first thing to wear out. Including a switch robust enough to last as long as the rest of the product is generally too expensive for consumer electronics.

Capacitive buttons can be made much better with some kind of instant feedback to replace the tactile feedback of physical buttons.

The problem is that adding that kind of feedback costs money. Even if it's just a few pennies per device, most manufacturers won't do it for consumer devices. That kind of penny pinching is the reason I avoid consumer grade products if at all feasible.

Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by gh02t on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @12:54AM (#15539310)
Yeah, a lot of microcontrollers have integrated capacitive sensing (Atmel calls it QTouch, other manufacturers have similar). In that case a capacitive button is very near free, as you only need an extra trace that is reliable to fabricate and requires minimal extra soldering.

Capacitive buttons have some distinct advantages too, primarily being waterproof and nearly infinite durability. A lot of UI issues like OPs stove are likely poor software, there is no real reason why a capacitive button would need a 700 ms pause between actions. Now, the lack of tactile feedback is a more fundamental problem sometimes, but capacitive buttons can be great when implemented well.

Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by shakna on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @01:00AM (#15539339)
Capacitive also has some drawbacks. Like with this oven... They tend to be temperature sensitive, depending on shielding. Delays with QTouch aren't unusual above 120F.
Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by learc83 on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @01:13AM (#15539380)
I'm pretty confident the problems with the oven are software related and nothing to do with the inherent limitations of capacitive inputs.

The problem described occurs before the oven even has time to heat up at all much less heat the input panel to 120F.

Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by shakna on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @01:06AM (#15539355)
Our supplier delivers capacitive switches at about $80 per thousand, resistive at $75 per thousand, and tactile at $95 per thousand.

However resistive needs fine-tuning, and really shouldn't be used in dusty or hot environments. Which adds design time and shielding costs.

In our internal research, they end up costing about equal. But we are small, so it might change at a larger scale, though I'd expect those differences to shrink.

Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by learc83 on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @01:28AM (#15539434)
You can include capacitive inputs on a PCB in many cases for essentially zero cost.

You also don't need to engineer attachment points into the product chassis, and assembly is easier.

In addition, they can improve the lifespan of the product because they don't wear out nearly as fast, and they don't provide ingress for dust and water.

Capacitive inputs have many downsides, but at scale they are certainly cheaper on average.

In your particular case they may not be cheaper due to other design considerations.

Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by Nition on Monday October 23, 2017 @11:59PM (#15539102)
It definitely looks more sort of futuristic, I have to concede that. Too bad we have to actually use these devices instead of just admiring them in the shop. Thank you for advocating mechanical buttons.
Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by stickfigure on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @12:22AM (#15539195)
In the 70s my family bought a microwave oven. It had one knob with a dial, which you would turn clockwise to the number of minutes. The microwave would immediately start (if closed, of course) and count down. The gradations had a logarithmic scale. If you wanted to stop early, you turned the knob counterclockwise to zero.

That interface was genius. These days I sob and cry every time I have to figure out how to use an unfamiliar microwave.

Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by semi-extrinsic on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @01:08AM (#15539361)
Those are still easy to come by. I was buying one for an 83-year-old relative last christmas, and there was plenty of choice even. We ended up with a Whirlpool model that even dings a physical bell once when it finishes.

As for regular oven tops, we spent some time finding an induction model with physical buttons. It's wonderful and I enjoy using it every day. It's very tactile. Throw a kettle on and slam it to "P" in 30 milliseconds, aah I love it.

Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by endless1234 on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @02:31AM (#15539655)
Those are still readily available. I dislike the knob only design (with no time display) since it makes having something in for 15 seconds or w/e harder, but that might just be me.
Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by mc32 on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @12:39AM (#15539250)
They still make dial microwaves, I got one, I think it's a Pana --but unlike the previous one I had (don't recall the make) once set, you can't readjust time. Either terrible design, or maybe a patent preventing the adding of time while the microwaving continues. For example, if It think that instead of 30 secs, I want to readjust it to 40 when it's down to 20 to make a total of 50, I have to wait till it winds all the way down (or stop and set a new clock) -bummer
Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by ccozan on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @01:51AM (#15539517)
I don't think is a patent ( maybe it was ). I have a relatively new one, german made, that works exactly like that: two knobs, one for setting the power and one for setting the time.

Both are on the fly adjustable, both power and time. I find it really good design.

Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by mc32 on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @02:09AM (#15539590)
That's good to hear. I miss my on-the-fly adjustable one. When it broke down, I looked but could not find a small one (<=.9fcu), so I went with a Pana that had a dial since I rather dislike the touchpad ones.
Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by zorpner on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @01:34AM (#15539465)
If you're ever looking for a toaster, check out Dualit (the classic, not whatever cheap plastic one they peddle to price-segment). I use mine every day and interface-wise, it's pretty much the most satisfying moment of every day.
Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by vikascoder on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @12:09AM (#15539145)
my whole Bosch line of washing machines and dryer have these buttons where i have to press my fingers awkwardly, sometimes slide it side to side for it to register a simple thing as "Start". Cool looking? i dont know but hey, put some LEDs on normal plastic buttons man.
Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by ballenf on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @12:24AM (#15539210)
My Bosch dishwasher's buttons drive me nuts. They need a firm press for a second or more and then beep half a second after I lift my finger. I won't know whether the touch registered until after I let go. Don't even think about the next button you need to press until you're sure the last one took or you'll be holding the reset buttons for an eternity and starting over.

They don't work any better or worse with wet hands, so I have to figure they kind of sacrificed overall usability in exchange for capacitive touch working with wet fingers.

Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by mirkules on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @12:22AM (#15539199)
My Bosch dishwasher has pretty cool mechanical buttons. My wife says it looks like a cassette deck from the '80s. I love the buttons. Too bad the dishwasher is unreliable.
Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by krastanov on Monday October 23, 2017 @11:54PM (#15539080)
They certainly must be cheaper - no mechanical components, just a single wire (instead of two) connecting the pad to the micro-controller. And they are "fancy"/"futuristic".

My lab placed fancy touch-screens in the place of the light switches. Now turning the lights on or off takes at least 15 seconds but we get to pretend to be luxurious :(

Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by blackguardx on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @02:33AM (#15539664)
Switches are usually connected to digital inputs with one wire as well. The other wire is connected to either power or ground. The wire to the microcontroller is either pulled up or down with a resistor to power or ground, respecively.
Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by krastanov on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @01:01PM (#15543104)
Yes, but capsense does not require that power/ground wire.
Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by ballenf on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @12:28AM (#15539223)
Do they work with gloves? Why not just a motion sensor with a manual override?
Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by gruturo on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @05:08AM (#15540239)
I find them extremely practical on my induction stove: it's a single perfectly smooth glass surface, which makes it a joy to clean. Physical buttons (or any 3-D feature really) and food preparation make cleaning a hassle.
Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by tomkinstinch on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @07:16PM (#15546036)
I prefer physical buttons, or better yet knobs I can remove and soak to clean. My range has capacitive buttons for its oven controls, and every time I wipe it down with a damp sponge every button is triggered along with a cacophony of beeps. It could disregard inputs when multiple are registered in quick succession, but then each button would have to have a delay before action to see if it was pressed individually, and of course rapid legitimate use would pose a problem (as in the iOS calculator issue).
Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by tfha on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @12:22AM (#15539198)
They are smooth. Seductive. Subtle. Slow and intimate, you like to touch them and they like it back. A soft sexy red glow that fades in and fades out as you massage your commands into it's willing display.

You don't make sales based on how much people like using it, you make sales based on how attractive it appears while on display.

Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by Nition on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @12:31AM (#15539229)
Well, I'm hoping that effect dwindles after one generation of products once everyone's learnt their lesson.
Re:Try quickly typing 1+ 2 + 3 into the iOS 11 Calculator by TorKlingberg on Tuesday October 24, 2017 @05:20AM (#15540292)
They seems to break less than (low quality) mechanical buttons.