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Re:After the end of the startup era by thinkloop on Sunday October 22, 2017 @01:16PM (#15527807)
I prefer figuring out how to incorporate the externalities instead of banning/quitting things. Meat at twice the price would probably solve the problem.
Re:After the end of the startup era by sosborn on Sunday October 22, 2017 @02:05PM (#15528076)
> Meat at twice the price would probably solve the problem.

While true, it basically sends the message of "If you have enough money you are free to do what you please to the detriment of the planet."

Re:After the end of the startup era by abraae on Sunday October 22, 2017 @02:12PM (#15528111)
Although it sounds outrageous when you say it like that, its pragmatic, and fits us as a species.

I'd like petrol to be 3 or 4 times the cost it is now. That would greatly reduce emissions, but fossil fuels could still be used in situations where there was no alternative (long distance flight, huge earthmoving machines?).

Inevitably, rich jerks would continue to ride their jetskis. So what?

You can't legislate people to have the right attitude. But taxing things does drive bulk behaviour.

Re:After the end of the startup era by KGIII on Sunday October 22, 2017 @04:30PM (#15528779)
Some of those giant earth-movers, like the tracked mining equipment that fills a giant mining-sized dump truck, are already powered by electricity that is generated on-site. They have big giant cables that trail behind them.

I mention this just to share that there is some chance of this improving, even in areas we might not think likely. If it is a long-term mining operation (short-term someday, perhaps) then I can't think of a technical reason that prevents wind and solar being used to generate the on-site electricity.

A recent HN article was about one of the mining dump trucks being powered by battery and using regenerative braking to mean it was able to charge itself. Those giant diggers are already using braking in their cables that power their shovels. Maybe there is something to capture there, as well.

In my work, I had the chance to deal with some riggers and some crane operators (smaller stuff) by just exposure while collecting data. During that exposure, I learned something new. Lifting the stuff up is actually pretty easy. It is putting it down that is difficult. Maybe there is some energy to capture in that process?

Re:After the end of the startup era by abraae on Monday October 23, 2017 @03:10AM (#15531283)
That sounds pretty cool. I guess there will be a lot of mining for lithium in the future.
Re:After the end of the startup era by thinkloop on Sunday October 22, 2017 @02:39PM (#15528237)
> If you have enough money you are free to do what you please to the detriment of the planet.

But it wouldn't be a detriment, the extra cost would be derived from the expenses associated with offsetting the negative externalities (by cleaning pollution, planting trees, recycling, water purification, whatever).

Re:After the end of the startup era by samstave on Sunday October 22, 2017 @02:18PM (#15528134)
Uh, that's the exact business model of Whole Foods, now amazon.

Basically "only the rich shall eat healthy"

And to be totally honest, I want to tackle this issue through a startup called "standard pantry" which is the idea that one should have access to a standard pantry of goods and recipes (in place of a standard min income) and they should be able to sustain only and healthily feed themselves.

Re:After the end of the startup era by tertius on Sunday October 22, 2017 @02:30PM (#15528181)
Replace

> only the rich shall eat healthy

With

> only the rich shall eat fancy

It's easy to eat healthy if you're not rich. Buy non-processed ingredients and cook them yourself.

Re:After the end of the startup era by samstave on Sunday October 22, 2017 @02:35PM (#15528207)
"Easy" means that you have been educated to a state that makes you aware of such...

That's the problem.

We need to educate on a basic standard pantry that allows healthy to be so easy that it doesn't even cross our minds.

Re:After the end of the startup era by tertius on Sunday October 22, 2017 @02:47PM (#15528270)
Educate? The only thing between me and a home cooked meal is fast food. Cooking is not inaccessible.

If the only problem is nutrition education then that is not a rich person privilege.

A large majority of the public cannot afford Whole foods but are educated enough to understand that home cooked meals from non-processed ingredients are healthier than their counterparts.

If education is all it took we'd all be rich with six pack abs. (Derek Sivers.)

Habit rules all.

Make unhealthy food illegal? Make marketing unhealthy food illegal?

Hmm...

Re:After the end of the startup era by samstave on Sunday October 22, 2017 @02:59PM (#15528322)
See, your logic is sound, and the math isn't working out recently though.

I learned to cook from my depression era grandmother. Home cooking is healthy, but not always cheap.

My grandmother used to tell me "this meal is $1.37 per serving"

As we made things, I learned to cook in le curset pots from a woman who used to travel the world with Martin yan and Julia child... (we were state department family and had a lot of opportunity)

But my main point remains: the "educate" is pArt-and-parcel to the whole greater idea of a home cooked meal: "family time"

"Fast food is the bane of existence as we have basically brought generations to not value what home cooking means... then we exploit them in the cheap labor force and perpetuate the idea that having a "home cooked meal" means that "the way mom used to cook it" is an actual phrase and it means the disruption of the basis of modern society, the family...

This issue can spiral and spiral, but my point is that rather than basic income, we need basic pantry - the basis of understanding, having access to, and the knowledge to cook a good meal without breaking the home (due to how hard people need to work at jobs for their ability to provide food on the table)

Re:After the end of the startup era by tertius on Sunday October 22, 2017 @05:01PM (#15528909)
I think we will enjoy a cup of coffee together.
Re:After the end of the startup era by samstave on Sunday October 22, 2017 @06:24PM (#15529335)
Deal. I'm in Oakland during the day and Walnut Creek during the nights. Let me know what works.
Re:After the end of the startup era by tertius on Sunday October 22, 2017 @08:48PM (#15529913)
Houston during the day, South Africa in my dreams.

I'm there once a year. I'll pin this.

Re:After the end of the startup era by gdfhhgddhjj on Sunday October 22, 2017 @02:28PM (#15528173)
Well, this is true today at least. What are you surprised at?
Re:After the end of the startup era by sosborn on Sunday October 22, 2017 @06:36PM (#15529386)
What makes you think I am suprised?
Re:After the end of the startup era by krtkush on Sunday October 22, 2017 @01:26PM (#15527860)
My bet is on lab produced meat.
Re:After the end of the startup era by reitanqild on Sunday October 22, 2017 @01:54PM (#15528008)
FWIW earlier this year I ate something soy based that felt and tasted like pork.
Re:After the end of the startup era by EGreg on Sunday October 22, 2017 @01:19PM (#15527820)
Yeah good luck achieving that using pure capitalism. Unless you liberate all the farm animals by buying them out. You need regulations to prevent factory farming!
Re:After the end of the startup era by taysic on Sunday October 22, 2017 @02:00PM (#15528046)
We can start by removing subsidies.

Amount US taxpayers spend yearly to subsidize meat and dairy : $38 billion

To subsidize fruits and vegetables : $17 million

US retail price of a pound of chicken in 1935 (adjusted for inflation) : $5.07

In 2011 : $1.34

Pounds of chicken eaten annually per American in 1935 : 9

In 2011 : 56

Revenue collected by US fishing industry per pound of fish caught : $0.59

Portion of this figure funded by taxpayers as subsidies : $0.28

https://meatonomics.com/2013/08/22/meatonomics-index/

Re:After the end of the startup era by tertius on Sunday October 22, 2017 @02:32PM (#15528186)
Comparing current day consumption to a single year in the past reeks of bias.
Re:After the end of the startup era by taysic on Sunday October 22, 2017 @02:55PM (#15528304)
What kind of bias? I copy pasted a cluster of lines from that page, but the sources themselves are well documented, mainly from the gov itself.

Anyway here's another source that shows that meat consumption has dramatically increased since the 1920s, though that wasn't my central point:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2012/06/27/155527365/vis...

Re:After the end of the startup era by tertius on Monday October 23, 2017 @10:11AM (#15533271)
Example:

I want to show that there is a lot more murder today than before because of guns.

I pick one year (a far edge of the bell curve type of year) to compare to today where there was the least amount of murders and compare it to day.

Without showing an average or showing even a distribution bias should be expected. There is very little reason for picking a single year to these types of arguments and it is too often done.

Re:After the end of the startup era by EGreg on Monday October 23, 2017 @01:51PM (#15535269)
Didn't conservatives do this with global warming? Except they took the hottest year 1998 as a starting point to say warming isn't happening

https://www.climaterealityproject.org/blog/three-ways-climat...