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Re:California Governor Vetoes Statewide 5G Antenna Standards by tzs on Saturday October 21, 2017 @08:49PM (#15524487)
> When is this going to stop? It feels like we're going backwards in terms of people understanding science.

Who is there that is telling the public what the science says and that the public can trust?

Government agencies and their scientists?

They often have a tendency to make recommendations based on weak science, and if they are regulating an industry with a lot of political influence they may even make recommendations that go against what the science says.

For an example take a look at dietary recommendations in the US. Almost everything that has gone into them has not held up. The public followed them, reduced fats, eggs, and protein, and loaded up on carbs...and became fat and diabetic.

How about non-government advocacy groups?

They botch it too. Continuing with the dietary recommendations example, the American Heart Association, for example, jumped on the unscientific "fat and cholesterol bad" bandwagon, and spent decades giving people harmful advice.

Industry scientists?

Their employers often get to decide what they publish, which means that although the industry scientists might not outright lie about results, they may remain silent about results that would go against their employer's interests.

Academic scientists?

This is probably your best bet. The problem here is that academic research is often not directly on point for the particular issue that regulators or legislators are addressing. Academic researchers are more likely to be doing the basic research that industry, government, and NGO researchers should be building upon.

Re:California Governor Vetoes Statewide 5G Antenna Standards by adreamingsoul on Saturday October 21, 2017 @09:38PM (#15524658)
So, what is your process to disprove wrong assumptions that you or someone else has?
Re:California Governor Vetoes Statewide 5G Antenna Standards by labster on Saturday October 21, 2017 @09:53PM (#15524710)
Re:California Governor Vetoes Statewide 5G Antenna Standards by kobeya on Saturday October 21, 2017 @09:58PM (#15524727)
Why should people trust someone else instead of using their own brain to evaluate arguments?
Re:California Governor Vetoes Statewide 5G Antenna Standards by Larrikin on Saturday October 21, 2017 @10:21PM (#15524799)
It's impossible to become an expert in everything.
Re:California Governor Vetoes Statewide 5G Antenna Standards by ShabbosGoy on Sunday October 22, 2017 @12:16AM (#15525134)
But it is possible to apply Occam's Razor to a scientific hypothesis. Is it too much to ask to require people to read? And draw their own conclusions?
Re:California Governor Vetoes Statewide 5G Antenna Standards by int_19h on Sunday October 22, 2017 @12:49AM (#15525200)
It is, actually. It doesn't scale once you start talking about too many things at once. There's so much time one can spend reading. At some point, you just have to trust the experts (whoever you consider those to be) on many things.
Re:California Governor Vetoes Statewide 5G Antenna Standards by kobeya on Sunday October 22, 2017 @03:17AM (#15525588)
Speak for yourself. I seem to have no problem verifying my beliefs.
Re:California Governor Vetoes Statewide 5G Antenna Standards by lovich on Sunday October 22, 2017 @06:43AM (#15526093)
Please explain exactly how your current device is displaying this page, and please no handwaving like "a key is pressed" or "a dns record is served", we need this down to the electron level.

That was overly sarcastic for hn, but the point was that there is not a single human alive who can explain everything they do. At some point you are going to hit an assumption that you have not personally verified

Re:California Governor Vetoes Statewide 5G Antenna Standards by kobeya on Sunday October 22, 2017 @07:45AM (#15526330)
I have reasonable models for how my machine works, verified by my knowledge of physics and engineering which I have sought to acquire even though it is not my field of study. More to the point, if someone makes a claim about the electrical engineering in my device, I have some basis for evaluating whether that is true or false.

E.g. if you claim that the NSA is listening into every single thing that is said on everybody's phones and watches, I would know that not to be true from bandwidth and battery arguments. Selectively, sure, but I could tell if it was happening 24/7 to my device in some sort of dragnet surveillance.

Re:California Governor Vetoes Statewide 5G Antenna Standards by lovich on Sunday October 22, 2017 @02:09PM (#15528095)
I feel like you have drawn a line in the sand and said , "This is the proper amount of knowledge to have, anything more than it is wasteful and anything less is ignorant".

How did you verify your physics and engineering knowledge? Did you run hundreds of thousands of experiments to verify every single law and property of physics? At some point you are reaching a piece of data you learned from someone else and did not verify or that is an assumption because it's currently unknown how to explain or takes too much effort to verify while living your life.

On top of that, the OP was talking about how it was impossible to verify _everything_ in our lives nowadays. You mentioned nothing about biology or chemistry. How do you know your diet is the proper one? Are you sure about every chemical you interact with and how it affects you? Do you properly understand copyright and other IP law when you make a YouTube video using someone else's work? Did you get the right permits to put up that shed on your land that complies with the regulations from the 7 different layers of polity that cover you? Life is far too complicated to understand every facet and it only gets worse as we realize things are more complicated than we previously thought

Re:California Governor Vetoes Statewide 5G Antenna Standards by ShabbosGoy on Sunday October 22, 2017 @12:53AM (#15525211)
> At some point, you just have to trust the experts (whoever you consider those to be) on many things.

That's extremely dangerous IMO. If you have a populace that is not literate or engaged, you end up with a slave society. Just see the rise of the concept of a "thought leader" [1]. It's quite scary when you see the implications such a concept will have for society.

[1] https://newrepublic.com/article/143004/rise-thought-leader-h...

Re:California Governor Vetoes Statewide 5G Antenna Standards by int_19h on Sunday October 22, 2017 @02:42AM (#15525484)
To repeat, it's not physically possible to judge every single thing. It doesn't matter if you're literate and engaged - there's just not enough time, even if you were to spend every hour you have on this. And most people have jobs etc.
Re:California Governor Vetoes Statewide 5G Antenna Standards by kobeya on Sunday October 22, 2017 @03:19AM (#15525590)
This is simply not true. Once literate it often takes a minimal amount of effort — back of the envelope calculation or google search— to do a first pass test of the veracity of a source.
Re:California Governor Vetoes Statewide 5G Antenna Standards by lovich on Sunday October 22, 2017 @06:46AM (#15526103)
You're still relying on another party when you do a Google search, hell if you want to get crazy about it, you are relying that you were correctly taught literacy and that when you read a word, the meaning it has for you is the same meaning the author attributed to that word. It's not guaranteed
Re:California Governor Vetoes Statewide 5G Antenna Standards by TeMPOraL on Sunday October 22, 2017 @09:11AM (#15526651)
It is possible, but I wouldn't put too much confidence in conclusions I've arrived at through application of the Razor on the field I know little about.

An interesting concept to that effect is that of "epistemic learned helplessness"

http://squid314.livejournal.com/350090.html

Basically, if you're not an expert in some field, then for any given argument, arguments of either side can be made to sound equally convincing to you, so - unless you have time to become an expert in every domain you encounter - your best bet is to accept the general scientific consensus on the topic.

(If anything, Occam's Razor is very useful to determine who is arguing for the generic scientific consensus, and who is arguing out of political reasons, or fear driven by ignorance.)

Re:California Governor Vetoes Statewide 5G Antenna Standards by Trundle on Saturday October 21, 2017 @10:38PM (#15524854)
Because not everyone wants to be some super nerd who reads studies 24/7.