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Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by carlivar on Monday October 16, 2017 @01:02AM (#15480945)
What makes you think Tesla doesn't fundamentally grasp it? This anecdote? The plural of anecdote is not data.

Your wikipedia link on the Toyota Production System says it was developed between 1948 and 1975. So it look 27 years to develop. Working for a startup myself, I'm very aware of Kanban and other TPS-inspired work processes. Sometimes in startup-hair-on-fire-mode that all goes out the window and I think that's where Tesla is in company maturity right now.

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by wpietri on Monday October 16, 2017 @01:45AM (#15481110)
> Sometimes in startup-hair-on-fire-mode that all goes out the window

If that's how you use it, then you also don't grasp it. The point of a process is that it supports you in hard times. (In easy times, any process will do.) In my view, the essence of Lean is patient incremental gain. Giving in to panic is throwing all its benefits away, and creating both immediate and long-term problems for yourself.

A good counterexample to your theory is Toyota itself. They created the hybrid category from scratch. They are still the market leader. They started by building one. They moved on to a small annual production volume. As they worked out the kinks, they sold more and more, eventually starting to sell in the US. As far as I can tell, at no point did they enter "hair-on-fire mode".

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by carlivar on Monday October 16, 2017 @01:58AM (#15481157)
Hmm, good point. I agree with you about patient incremental gain. I wish my boss and other leaders did. Maybe I also work for an Elon Musk, come to think of it. And yet, I'm still not sure my boss and others don't _understand_ lean manufacturing and its related disciplines. They just seem to pick and choose when they want to apply it. I was recently reading about Jeff Bezos and his "Day 1" mantra as well... perhaps the question is whether that sort of thing can apply to cars.
Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by brianwawok on Monday October 16, 2017 @12:52PM (#15484679)
Toyota also had profits of billions of dollars from other lines to back their Hybrid model.

Tesla is basically a really big startup, and has nowhere near the cash reserve to take 6 years to bring the model 3 to market. It it basically get it out NOW, or fold. In 6 years Ford etc. etc. already has a model 3 equivalent for sale and knows how to manufacture. You can't play it so safe in an established market if you want to dive in.

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by wpietri on Monday October 16, 2017 @01:09PM (#15484831)
I don't think it works like that.

"Getting it out now" means building a very reliable, high-volume production line. If you rush that, you get an unreliable production line, which unless you just ship garbage, will be a low-volume production line or a very expensive production line. Or both.

I understand why "hair-on-fire mode" feels right. One's internal feelings of urgency are matched by dramatic action. The chaos and excitement of red alert gives nobody time for contemplation and lets everyone ignore the uncomfortable feelings that might come from that. But people in that mode make terrible choices, drastically undervaluing the long term.

In software, it's especially easy for us. Our products are rarely life critical, people are used to them being flaky, and we can fix things later by shipping new versions. None of these is true about cars. People used to ship garbage anyhow, which is why the US car market in the 70s and 80s was plagued with problems. And why Toyota and others could make such inroads.

Tesla should absolutely be taking risks, especially product feature and marketing risks. But taking quality and productivity risks in hopes that they can somehow make it up later strikes me as a terrible idea.

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by brianwawok on Monday October 16, 2017 @05:05PM (#15486652)
So to try and bring back to software terms. There can be two reasons for a shaky launch in a software product:

1) An app is solid, has awesome QA... but the environment does not. You need to shake out some networking bugs / load bugs, etc.

2) The app is terrible. Every part of it is broke. needs a total rewrite.

To an end user both feel the same, but the expected curve to make it stable is VASTLY different.

In theory Tesla has been in the car business for at least a few years. It MAY be closer to 1. Maybe 2 or 3 vendors are 3 months behind schedule in delivering production machines. Which is bad, but not "we are totally screwed" bad.

On the other hand, it is insanely ambitious. It totally could be a #2 totally screwed bad.

Time will tell.

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by ubernostrum on Monday October 16, 2017 @06:21PM (#15487128)
Or maybe Tesla "has been in the car business for a few years" and, in typical "disruptive" startup fashion, is ignoring lessons learned the hard way over decades. Mostly because, it seems, anything an established company does is wrong as a mater of dogmatic definition.
Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by rconti on Monday October 16, 2017 @10:54PM (#15488312)
I just don't get the theory being passed around here that if they don't nail the process absolutely right on the first try (okay, third) that it can't improve.

What's wrong with improving the process as you go, as Toyota almost certainly did?

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by wpietri on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @11:56PM (#15496785)
The problem is that from what Gassée says, the are behaving in ways that work against Lean-style continuous improvement.

It's sort of like saying, "Why can't you just clean this enormously messy code base up one bug at a time?" Sure, you can in theory. But it's a very rare project that does it. Even places that do total rewrites often eventually end up with as big a mess as they had before. Why? Because the real problem is the ideas, relationships, and habits that got them the messy code base in the first place. That is extremely hard to change.

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by brianwawok on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @08:20AM (#15490302)
How serious the problems are will determine if they are 2 month to fix problems or 2 year. If they are 2 year then model3 is in for some trouble.
Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by Hypx on Monday October 16, 2017 @01:12AM (#15480985)
It's pretty self-evident if you read the next two paragraphs:

> (Ironically, the Fremont plant is prominently featured in “The Machine…” as the locus of the ultimately failed GM-Toyota cooperation.)

> As I watched Tesla’s messy, hiccuping line, with workers dashing in to fix faulty parts in place, my mind travelled back to the Honda plant I had visited years ago in Marysville, Ohio. Clean, calm, everything moved smoothly. I was so shocked by the contrast that I imprudently voiced my concern. That didn’t go over well with my fellow Tesla owners. I was a killjoy, I was calling their choice into question.

So we have an actual first-hand description of the differences between Tesla's and Toyota/Honda's understanding of lean manufacturing. Even in the very same building in fact. And I'm pretty sure the author is describing the production of Model S or X, not the new Model 3. Since those cars have been in production for a while now, there's no way they wouldn't have implemented something like the lean manufacturing system unless they simply don't understand it.

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by hbarka on Monday October 16, 2017 @01:55AM (#15481148)
I’ve been to a factory tour. The author’s anecdote is off the mark. What I observed were mostly robots doing the assemble and welding and then the typical assembly line for installing the interiors. It was smooth and had a cadence. Mr Gasee was talking about Just-In-Time (JIT) concepts and lean inventory and when he saw parts on a shelf it contradicted his idea of JIT. JIT doesn’t mean you can’t have safety stock. Tesla is also pursuing vertical integration and prefer to make subassemblies in-house. I have my doubts about Gasee’s agenda.
Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by carlivar on Monday October 16, 2017 @01:19AM (#15481023)
I really find it hard to believe they don't understand the TPS. Sure. Maybe. I don't know.

It seems more likely to me their "goal" (pun intended for those readers of "The Goal") is the TPS but their particular supply chain may not currently allow for it.

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by majormajor on Monday October 16, 2017 @01:28AM (#15481058)
So even that interpretation leaves me wondering "why didn't they take that into account earlier"? Do the fancy computer-control-all-the-things people have too much influence compared to the boring practicalities of things like "how will we build this?"

Fundamentally my question on Tesla is now: if you're priced as a "we have a fundamentally better way of doing things that will disrupt the industry" company, but the core process in your business is still fundamentally inferior, will you have a long enough runway?

I used to be a bear on Tesla for grumpy "I don't like the decisions and design choices they make" reasons, but now the business itself seems a bit underdeveloped.

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by carlivar on Monday October 16, 2017 @01:45AM (#15481111)
Here we agree. I come across as a Tesla fanboy in these comments but I think Tesla's valuation is crazy high, too high, and I still think there's a chance they fail completely like so many other auto companies (a tough business).

My theory is Musk knows the only way he'll be able to compete is attracting the best talent through stock incentives, and to do that he needs to jack up the stock price by pushing engineers way past what they are comfortable with.

An underreported stat is the increase in TSLA outstanding shares, which I think is Elon throwing stock incentives at his employees to make them go faster, as a TPS alternative (for now?)

https://ycharts.com/companies/TSLA/shares_outstanding

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by prostoalex on Monday October 16, 2017 @02:34AM (#15481296)
The increase in shares was due to secondary offering https://www.fool.com/investing/2016/05/26/tesla-motors-maxed...

Tesla’s stock behavior is due to the ongoing game of “who blinks first” between TSLA shorts and TSLA short-squeezers. With $10 billion short position the company’s fundamentals are reduced to a side show.

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by carlivar on Monday October 16, 2017 @07:41PM (#15487547)
Your article only accounts for about 7.9 million new shares from the secondary offering, but many more have been issued.

It's primarily from equity grants. Even your article says Musk tacked on his stock option exercise as part of the secondary offering, which increased the dilution.

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by wpietri on Monday October 16, 2017 @01:52AM (#15481140)
> I really find it hard to believe they don't understand the TPS. Sure. Maybe. I don't know.

American carmakers didn't get it for decades. Even when they thought they did, they performed Lean rituals without real understanding. This was despite Toyota trying vigorously to teach them.

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by pja on Monday October 16, 2017 @03:26AM (#15481453)
History shows that knowledge transfer is really, really hard. Humans are just not very good at it :(

(A similar story is told of the spread of the use of Feynman diagrams in physics - I’ve read that their spread was far slower than you’d expect given their utility: For whatever reason it wasn’t enough to be told that they were an incredibly useful tool by people you trusted - it was only when non users actually worked together on problems with Feynman diagram users, or were taught by Feynman diagram users directly that their use actually spread. Both of these transfer methods required physical proximity which restricted the use of Feynman diagrams to a small number of labs for a surprisingly long time.)

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by wpietri on Monday October 16, 2017 @01:12PM (#15484859)
Definitely. And in this case I don't think it was just knowledge that needed transferring. It was culture and values.

There's a This American Life episode (centered around what is now Tesla's plant) that covers this well: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/561/...

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by mcherm on Monday October 16, 2017 @09:03AM (#15482866)
Fascinating story, do you have any idea where you read that?
Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by pja on Monday October 16, 2017 @10:46AM (#15483528)
Nope, but a quick Google suggests that this paper:

“Spreading the Tools of Theory: Feynman Diagrams in the USA, Japan, and the Soviet Union” by David Kaiser, Kenji Ito and Karl Hall

http://web.mit.edu/dikaiser/www/Kaiser.SpreadingTools.pdf

must have been the original source research.

edit: Also, there’s a book (by one of the authors of that paper): “Drawing Theories Apart: The Dispersion Of Feynman Diagrams In Postwar Physics” https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B002Y5W2X2

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by dctoedt on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @01:03PM (#15492597)
The Kaiser et al. paper cited by 'pja is fascinating. This passage (at 887) practically puts the reader in the room at the Institute for Advanced Study:

<blockquote>

... Thus, when [Freeman] Dyson arrived at the Institute for Advanced Study in September 1948, Feynman diagrams in hand, he immediately joined ten fellow ‘postdocs’ in theoretical physics, the largest cohort yet.

[J. Robert Oppenheimer had reorganized the Institute to emphasize post-doc training for physicists; he was quoted as saying that "the best way to send information is to wrap it up in a person."]

In fact, the new building that had been planned to hold offices for the newly expanded ranks had not been completed on time, so all of the postdocs wound up sharing desks in one large room for the first 6 weeks of their stay – an architectural arrangement perfectly suited for the sharing of tacit knowledge.

They huddled around large tables swapping ideas, pressing Dyson to explain the details of how to use Feynman diagrams. He delivered several sets of long lectures to the group, supplemented by constant, informal conversations.

By the winter of 1948–49, Dyson had organized them into several groups, each working on distinct diagrammatic calculations. One pair, Kenneth Watson and Joseph Lepore, worked with Dyson to calculate high-order terms in a certain model of nuclear forces, while another duo, Norman Kroll and Robert Karplus, took up Dyson’s lead to undertake similarly complex diagrammatic calculations in QED.

So effective were Dyson’s tutorials that Wolfgang Pauli wrote to another of the young Institute theorists that May, asking what Dyson and the rest of the ‘Feynman-school’ were working on.

</blockquote>

(Extra paragraphing added.)

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by mcherm on Thursday October 19, 2017 @07:49AM (#15507067)
Thank you! That was really a great read, and I wouldn't have sought it out without your help.
Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by dctoedt on Tuesday October 17, 2017 @01:40PM (#15492924)
'pja, you should post the Kaiser et al. paper to HN on its own.
Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by pja on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @04:09AM (#15497615)
That's a good idea. Done.
Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by dctoedt on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @09:34AM (#15498968)
Excellent. I just upvoted it; I hope the time zone difference won't keep the post from being seen.
Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by pja on Thursday October 19, 2017 @04:00PM (#15511075)
It got a second chance & got 33 votes the second time, but no discussion. Oh well - maybe it needs an explanatory blogpost or two in order to draw people in.
Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by _pmf_ on Monday October 16, 2017 @04:23AM (#15481678)
> Even when they thought they did, they performed Lean rituals without real understanding.

This reminds me of a certain other industry cargo culting a certain other methodology, but I cannot put my finger on it ...

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by Gibbon1 on Monday October 16, 2017 @05:37AM (#15481961)
Might be the production _rate_ for the previous models doesn't mesh well with their suppliers. We buy plastics in runs of 15,000 parts. It takes us a couple of months to go through those. And then we order more. The manufacturer doesn't make 200 parts a day. Or 1000 a week. The do a full run of 5-20,000 every three months. Which takes them a whole day, once the machine is setup they run it till the order is filled. Sometimes it's obvious they do higher runs and then break up the shipments.

Okay so our products are cheap and simple. But our yearly totals of 50,000 to 100,000 units is comparable to the what Tesla is hoping to get out the door. Tesla's numbers for previous models weren't nearly that high. Gonna be hard to just in time that.

Personal feeling. What an automaker is doing by outsourcing parts to suppliers and then making them manage inventory is. a) they as someone mentioned, keep the inventory management away from the production line. And importantly allowing suppliers to apply higher levels of scale then you could other wise. Important because likely many of Tesla's suppliers production machinery has vastly more capacity then Tesla needs. Telsa and other automakers are thus 'renting' time on those machines.

Frankly I think Tesla is ramping to this scale for the first time, it's bound to be a mess.

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by Lazare on Monday October 16, 2017 @05:27AM (#15481913)
TPS is, in part, a way of configuring your supply chain in order to ramp up production smoothly.

Tesla wants to ramp up production as their primary goal right now; if their supply chain is preventing them from doing so then they've funamentally failed.

> I really find it hard to believe they don't understand the TPS.

I agree, but that makes this more confusing and (at least potentially) more damning for Tesla. It's not that hard a concept; if you're running a manufacturing company but you screw up your supply chain badly then...I dunno. Maybe you're bad at running a manufacturing company? Supply chains are really important when you're doing something like making cars. And people having been advocating TPS since before I was even born.

So...it's a conundrum.

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by carlivar on Monday October 16, 2017 @07:43PM (#15487559)
Obviously Tesla is doing _something_ about this because what is the Gigafactory if not a major part of the supply chain?
Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by digikata on Monday October 16, 2017 @12:17PM (#15484337)
Toyota is a global car manufacturing company who has been manufacturing cars (and building new car factories) for many many decades now. This is will be Tesla's first high volume line of vehicles. I think it makes sense for some time to work out kinks in process and meta-processes.

Even a couple of years back when Toyota passed GM as highest volume maker of vehicles, the execs at Toyota said there was a moment where they took their eye off clean processes and Toyota quality suffered a bit. Some of that I suspect had to do with the timing of the retirement of a generation of very experienced people in Toyota. I think they've since been on a corrective course.

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by ubernostrum on Monday October 16, 2017 @06:22PM (#15487143)
I think it makes sense for some time to work out kinks in process and meta-processes.

I think it makes sense to consider the state of the art for reliable production lines. But NIH syndrome will have its way.

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by majormajor on Monday October 16, 2017 @01:14AM (#15480994)
If they're still in hair on fire mode after having many years and multiple previous models to practice on before the Model 3, that's the part that makes me think they don't grasp it.

Elon's software background, plus SpaceX which is fundamentally a very different kind of manufacturing, probably works against him here. Software startups essentially hate process (for often-good reasons) and view process as mostly a thing you put into place out of necessity after you've successfully navigated the growth phase. The stories from their production floor are the single most worrying thing that's come out about Tesla - bad vendor quality control, overengineering a la the Model X, all those other things are comparatively simple to grasp, learn from, and overcome. Why wasn't "learn how to mass-manufacture reliably" a much earlier goal?

Just because a system took 27 years to develop doesn't mean it takes 27 years to learn.

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by muglug on Monday October 16, 2017 @01:07AM (#15480961)
Tesla has been designing and producing road-worthy vehicles for 14 years. If they're in startup-hair-on-fire mode right now, something is very wrong.
Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by carlivar on Monday October 16, 2017 @01:14AM (#15480992)
Which new automaker of the past 40 years do you compare them to as far as measuring what is wrong?
Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by majormajor on Monday October 16, 2017 @01:21AM (#15481031)
Hyundai turned their quality around pretty massively in 10 to 20 years after entering the US market. So is our new bar for Tesla "do they run out of money before they can replicate what Hyundai did"? Doesn't seem like shooting for the stars.

Seems like blind replication isn't the answer alone ( http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00207540701223493... ), which is unsurprising, but Tesla's sales targets and their current production line process as-reported seem at odds.

This stuff is very well-studied and making basic errors seems like a problem of hubris coming from a software industry that's in a much less mature state.

Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by csours on Monday October 16, 2017 @01:09AM (#15480973)
Every large, successful automotive manufacturer uses some flavor of TPS.
Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by Cthulhu_ on Monday October 16, 2017 @07:40AM (#15482495)
Tesla isn't a startup though, they've been building cars for ten+ years and have a lot of smart people working for them that could've looked to wikipedia to figure out how the other car manufacturers manage to be efficient.
Re:Tesla’s New Car Smell by rphlx on Monday October 16, 2017 @05:41PM (#15486859)
I really doubt the problem is "nobody there understands the theory". More likely, as a large public company with considerable presales and aggressive public commitments, the ops people are probably being pressured to "just push a few more cars through manually today, while trying to improve the automation". It's easy to armchair-COO the situation and claim that you would halt the entire line (or problematic parts of it) for 30+ days unless/until every step is at 90%+ yield, but if Musk or the Board is saying no to that, you are basically trapped in a suboptimal local maximum that you know how to escape, but are socially unable to.