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Re:The real roots of early city states may rip up the textbooks by j_m_b on Saturday October 14, 2017 @01:31PM (#15473189)
Wouldn't surprise me at all if government was born from coercion of the individual to the needs of the state.. it is after all the definition of government.
Re:The real roots of early city states may rip up the textbooks by coldtea on Saturday October 14, 2017 @07:07PM (#15474818)
The basic idea is that it would be better to coerce to the rules/needs of a state, than to the arbitrary needs and whims of random powerful persons, teams of thugs, enemy tribes, etc.

And it got even better when people could elect and somewhat control the state.

Re:The real roots of early city states may rip up the textbooks by chongli on Saturday October 14, 2017 @11:31PM (#15475732)
Government was born from the necessity to manage and defend grain stockpiles. Compared to hunted/foraged food, grain could be stored for long periods of time and its high energy density made it a prime target for thieves/marauders.
Re:The real roots of early city states may rip up the textbooks by trgv on Sunday October 15, 2017 @12:14AM (#15475860)
That's one theory.

I find myself wondering what exactly differentiates a "government" from a "family council" or "tribal leadership" or whatever other phrase you want to use to describe an "authority-wielding-body with a monopoly on force."

I think "governments" are as old as people, and probably older. Many social animals have leaders who dominate the rest of the herd.

My feeling is that governments have always been here, they've just gotten bigger and maybe a little more sinister.

Re:The real roots of early city states may rip up the textbooks by chongli on Sunday October 15, 2017 @12:56AM (#15475957)
As with many things, the line is blurry. I think governments really start to take shape once you get past Dunbar's number [0]. When people no longer know everybody, they need to rely on rules and designated authority figures to settle disputes. I don't know of any way around that.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number

Re:The real roots of early city states may rip up the textbooks by trhway on Sunday October 15, 2017 @01:50PM (#15478170)
>I think governments really start to take shape once you get past Dunbar's number [0].

and from the wikipedia:

"British anthropologist Robin Dunbar, who found a correlation between primate brain size and average social group size."

that brings us to possible effect of social networks (which either help to overcome brain size limitation of social group size or help that brain function to atrophy - the exact effect on the brain is yet to be determined) on the government.

Re:The real roots of early city states may rip up the textbooks by icebraining on Sunday October 15, 2017 @08:18AM (#15476827)
The seems suspect; after all, the parliaments and other legislative chambers of most countries are larger than Dunbar's number.
Re:The real roots of early city states may rip up the textbooks by chongli on Sunday October 15, 2017 @08:56AM (#15476913)
Parliaments operate based on rules with a central authority, usually called the speaker, who acts to settle disputes. Parliaments do not operate like an extended family.
Re:The real roots of early city states may rip up the textbooks by icebraining on Sunday October 15, 2017 @09:49AM (#15477092)
The speaker doesn't really settle disputes, only helps the parties do that between themselves. They're mediators, not arbitrators. And they don't even set the mediation rules. The disputes are settled by vote.

As a member of a bellicose family, I can assure you that family members (often older and respected by both sides) acting as mediators are pretty common :)

Re:The real roots of early city states may rip up the textbooks by zby on Sunday October 15, 2017 @03:21AM (#15476243)
Another theory is that government was needed for building and maintaining irrigation systems in Mesopotamia and Egipt and then in China.
Re:The real roots of early city states may rip up the textbooks by toasterlovin on Sunday October 15, 2017 @06:36PM (#15479725)
FYI, the pre-contact New World had civilizations with governments despite not having grains.
Re:The real roots of early city states may rip up the textbooks by koppong on Monday October 16, 2017 @09:20AM (#15482941)
> not having grains.

It is well attested that several North, Meso- and South American cultures were growing maize well before the arrival of the Europeans.

Re:The real roots of early city states may rip up the textbooks by forapurpose on Saturday October 14, 2017 @09:21PM (#15475330)
> it is after all the definition of government

It's necessary for government (more specifically, at least for one context, a definition of sovereignty is a monopoly on violence and justice).

But the definition is much more than that. It's also collective decision-making. I don't follow the law - even ones I disagree with - and pay my taxes because I'm coerced, but because I believe very strongly in the rule of law, I respect the decisions of my fellow citizens - even ones I disagree with, and I'm proud to participate.

Re:The real roots of early city states may rip up the textbooks by JoBrad on Sunday October 15, 2017 @08:40AM (#15476868)
But if you don’t believe in it, you are coerced, either by being evicted or forced to comply.
Re:The real roots of early city states may rip up the textbooks by xj9 on Sunday October 15, 2017 @11:58AM (#15477662)
it is still coercive because you don't have the option to opt-out and you were never asked to opt-in. you may not comply because of coercion, but if you decide you disagree a do not comply there are plenty of guns waiting to make sure you change your mind.
Re:The real roots of early city states may rip up the textbooks by forapurpose on Sunday October 15, 2017 @02:26PM (#15478387)
> you were never asked to opt-in

I certainly was. My neighbors and I elected someone to represent us on the matter, there was a public debate about the law before it was passed and I told my representative how I wanted them to vote, and our representative's job is up for review in a year.

Re:The real roots of early city states may rip up the textbooks by pjc50 on Saturday October 14, 2017 @07:13PM (#15474853)
Before the state, the coercion of the family.
Re:The real roots of early city states may rip up the textbooks by drharby on Saturday October 14, 2017 @04:03PM (#15473941)
A government by the people, for the people? Ring any bells? Something something consent of the governed?
Re:The real roots of early city states may rip up the textbooks by labster on Saturday October 14, 2017 @07:10PM (#15474833)
When in the course of human events, something something, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.