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Re:African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard Engli... by scoot on Thursday October 12, 2017 @02:10PM (#15459926)
Am I understanding correctly that this paper is making the argument that because AAVE follows an identifiable set of grammatical rules, it is a dialect rather than an aberration?

I don't have any opinion on that, I just wanted to make sure I understood the basic premise.

Re:African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard Engli... by Pharylon on Thursday October 12, 2017 @02:22PM (#15460034)
Sure, and many rules of AAVE are more consistent.

For instance take the following words in standard English:

    * yourself
    * myself
    * ourselves
    * himself
    * itself

One of these things is not like the other! All of these take the form of possive + "self," except "himself." And sure enough, in AAVE we have "hisself" instead. A more logical, consistent replacement.
Re:African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard Engli... by csours on Thursday October 12, 2017 @02:25PM (#15460064)
So when some people think of AAVE speakers as incorrect, it is because they don't use the right wrong way to talk. Linguistics is a weird field.
Re:African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard Engli... by vorg on Thursday October 12, 2017 @02:52PM (#15460319)
You omitted 2 of the reflexive pronouns. Only the 1st and 2nd person forms use the possessive:

  * myself, ourselves, yourself.
All of the 3rd person forms use the personal pronoun:

  * themselves, himself, herself, itself
Does AAVE also use "theirselves" ?
Re:African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard Engli... by somecontext on Thursday October 12, 2017 @06:11PM (#15461713)
This article http://acrwebsite.org/volumes/7610/volumes/v21/NA-21 claims that AAVE uses "theirselves".

A quick search on Twitter suggests that "theirselves" is indeed used by people who use "hisself", but perhaps half an order of magnitude less than "themselves".

Re:African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard Engli... by jtuente on Thursday October 12, 2017 @02:32PM (#15460139)
To more heavily emphasize the point here consider the feminine possive as well, her/hers:

    * herself
Re:African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard Engli... by bonzini on Thursday October 12, 2017 @02:42PM (#15460214)
"her" is both the possessive and the accusative, so it's consistent with either myself or himself. Itself too, since you can consider it a contraction of either "it-self" or "its-self".
Re:African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard Engli... by weberc2 on Thursday October 12, 2017 @02:47PM (#15460270)
I recall that immigrant populations that don't integrate into the main population for long periods of time have a tendency to learn simplified versions of the original language. If I recall correctly, Old English lost a lot of its ornament when the Norse settled in Britain.

EDIT: I'm puzzled by the downvotes. Am I mistaken? If so, I'm happy to be corrected.

Re:African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard Engli... by yodon on Thursday October 12, 2017 @03:36PM (#15460660)
You are probably thinking of Pidgins and Creoles[0], two very well studied linguistic categories that come about when two or more groups with no shared language come together (Pidgin) and then their children learn the Pidgin as a first language (morphing it into a Creole). AAVE is grammatically and functionally distinct from either a Pidgin or a Creole.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creole_language

Re:African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard Engli... by sp332 on Thursday October 12, 2017 @02:12PM (#15459940)
Right. The point is that the differences are following rules, they're not "mistakes".
Re:African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard Engli... by weberc2 on Thursday October 12, 2017 @02:51PM (#15460314)
Seems like arguing semantics--what is a "mistake" if not a departure from the established convention? What is the difference between a "rule" and a "mistake"? That the "mistake" is repeated a certain amount of times and/or by some critical mass of people? How often / how many people must repeat the mistake before it becomes a rule? If it becomes a new rule, does it cease to become a mistake? The classification quickly begins to feel arbitrary.
Re:African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard Engli... by conistonwater on Thursday October 12, 2017 @03:08PM (#15460446)
> What is the difference between a "rule" and a "mistake"?

Your question is answered directly in Pullum's article, at length. He even gives a separate explicit example of the who-whom distinction and explains how it works and how to think about it. There is a clear reason for why this is not arbitrary.

Re:African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard Engli... by sp332 on Thursday October 12, 2017 @03:11PM (#15460478)
A mistake is made from ignorance or carelessness. It is individual and won't be shared, at least not widely. A rule is applied intentionally and consistently, and it can get wide support. Importantly, making up new rules does not indicate a mental or moral deficiency like making lots of mistakes might.
Re:African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard Engli... by tempYeez on Thursday October 12, 2017 @02:16PM (#15459986)
Yeh which makes sense because grammatical rules are by the nature of how a people would develop a language intuitive to humans. We put names to those grammatical rules, but they are typically more so a function of how human beings as a species communicate.
Re:African American Vernacular English Is Not Standard Engli... by conistonwater on Thursday October 12, 2017 @02:18PM (#15460000)
If you want to read more about dialects, I know Victor Mair (from Language Log) wrote a lot about such things in the context of Chinese (e.g., http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=10303; http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?cat=124). That's not anything specifically to do with AAVE, but more the general concept of what does and doesn't let you call something a dialect.