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Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by dogruck on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @06:34PM (#15454141)
Hunter gatherer times were certainly not superior to today. That's a pervasive myth.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_savage

Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by forkandwait on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @08:05PM (#15454633)
While nobility is bullshit, better nutrition as evidenced by height and tooth remains is true, only catching up in the 20th century, except for the rich of course. Sorry I don't have a source. (The benefits of civilization may have only accrued to a small proportion of the population for most of history. )
Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by dublinben on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @08:08PM (#15454649)
Jared Diamond's essay The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race makes this argument quite convincingly: http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html
Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by dogruck on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @09:54PM (#15455109)
Jared Diamond is not an expert. He's a pop culture writer.

If you want to explore the other side to that old essay, try this: https://www.google.com/search?q=The+Worst+Mistake+in+the+His...

Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by Nomentatus on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @11:47PM (#15455524)
He's a physiologist, who moved to other disciplines, with a touch of anthropology. There are no experts-on-everything-human, of course, so that'll probably have to do for now. One can imagine better combinations for such a synthetic interdisciplinary topic, I agree - but there weren't a lot of other volunteers. Academia likes narrow specialists. No need to falsely disparage him as a self-appointed writer whose only credential is popularity, it isn't true.

"After graduating from Cambridge, Diamond returned to Harvard as a Junior Fellow until 1965, and, in 1968, became a professor of physiology at UCLA Medical School. While in his twenties he developed a second, parallel, career in ornithology and ecology, specialising in New Guinea and nearby islands." - Wikipedia

Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by dogruck on Thursday October 12, 2017 @12:05AM (#15455594)
I'm not convinced by that call to authority. For example, what about Larry Summers? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers

Do you dispute his position on women in science? Or, should we take his position as correct for the same reasons that you list.

I did not say his only credit was popularity. I said he's a pop-writer, as opposed to, say, a peer reviewed expert in the domain.

In any case, my primary request is that people consider the long list of refutations to the claims in his mass-market publications.

Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by Shorel on Thursday October 12, 2017 @03:03AM (#15456180)
It should not be a call to authority. The only thing that matters are the individual arguments he exposes in the books, not the fact he's not an expert.

And history has also shown some experts can be wrong when the paradigm change of new ideas is too big.

However, and I say this is particularly important: all refutations I have read about his work focus on some particular detail, they are of the type: 'this number is wrong'. Of course it can be, he's speculating. And that's the easy part to fix! Just change the number in his argument with the correct one. Be constructive.

But I have never read a refutation that says: 'this line of reasoning is wrong'.

In fact, his work has been cited as an inspiration for 'Sapiens', which is a current best seller and it follows the same modus operandi.

Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by dogruck on Thursday October 12, 2017 @04:09AM (#15456413)
If you're genuinely curious in reading a refutation, then you should read through the 10-year-old HN discussion linked above.

Or, try googling. For example, here is a relevant discussion on NPR: http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2013/01/14/169374400/why-do...

Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by zeristor on Thursday October 12, 2017 @12:43AM (#15455727)
As ever HackerNews discussed this ten years ago:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43118

(Tichy’s karma is just 110 short)

Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by dogruck on Thursday October 12, 2017 @04:03AM (#15456399)
Would be fun to do a serious analysis of HN discussion, on the same topic, separated by 10 years. I don't mean identifying the occurrence -- I mean various characteristics of the discussion.

For example, perhaps certain facts have been more/less passionately supported after 10 years. Also aspects like tone.

Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by wefwef233 on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @08:41PM (#15454798)
Ordered this book but haven't touched it yet:

http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/10/01/55101875...

Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by dogruck on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @10:00PM (#15455126)
Doesn't look too happy to me -- maybe because I'm over 30 and would be dead. Also, I loved my mother (who is dead) -- but at least she didn't die in childbirth.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy

Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by red75prime on Thursday October 12, 2017 @04:12AM (#15456425)
Life expectancy at birth was low because of high children mortality. If you've made it to adolescence, you could expect to live 50-80 years.

https://condensedscience.wordpress.com/2011/06/28/life-expec...

Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by dogruck on Thursday October 12, 2017 @05:07AM (#15456647)
Losing many of my children, wives, and loved ones sure would make me sad.
Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by red75prime on Thursday October 12, 2017 @08:23AM (#15457429)
It would surely make you sad, if you had time-traveled there. If you had been living there, you probably would be a bit more fatalistic and willing to accept untimely deaths as a part of natural order, having no experience of better life.
Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by dogruck on Thursday October 12, 2017 @09:01AM (#15457609)
Does your logic also apply to the millions of people living in slavery and profound poverty today?

I concede that people adjust their expectations to norms that surround them. But I also feel there are certain floors in the human condition -- the death of a child being one of those rock bottoms.

Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by dogruck on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @09:55PM (#15455111)
Weak effort of combining "is true" with "don't have a source."
Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by Nomentatus on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @11:53PM (#15455544)
Actually, nutritionally they were far better off. Domestic plants have a broader spectrum of vitamins but far less of any one vitamin; a varied wild diet is vastly superior to what we eat now. Plus less work per day (except during times of starvation, due to little rain.) Give the book "The Old Way" a read for more direct information about just how much we've lost.
Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by nether on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @10:18PM (#15455205)
The noble savage is just a fictional trope. No one denies that people in past times had materially worse-off lives than we do today. But they probably had more freedom. In medieval times, you might have half of the year off for vacation: http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/08/29/why-a-medie.... You could largely do what you wanted, were not surveilled, and could live on your own as long as others around you weren't disturbed. The point isn't that it was a superior way of life, but it evokes a qualitative perspective on life. Would you rather live in perfect health for 100 years in prison, or as a diabetic paraplegic in the outside world for 40? What about 20? What about a prison that was full of your closest friends, versus a world of your enemies? Quality of life defies a mere "but healthcare, science, infrastructure etc. is better today!" metric that everyone on HN seems to stick to. There are profound cultural changes that we can't assess objectively. Culturally, emotionally, we may be worse off today. Our 60 years of wage slavery in windowless offices might seem unconscionable to a medieval peasant drinking mead all day by a stream with his friends, even if he ends up dying at 50.
Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by jules on Thursday October 12, 2017 @02:58AM (#15456155)
If you are OK with medieval levels of wealth then you can also take half the year off. In fact, you could probably take 11 months off if you live in a hut and buy a sack of potatoes once a week.
Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by icebraining on Thursday October 12, 2017 @03:38AM (#15456298)
What about a prison that was full of your closest friends, versus a world of your enemies?

You wouldn't be sent to prison in the first place.

"The tortures and punishments of civil justice customarily cut off hands and ears, racked, burned, flayed, and pulled apart people's bodies. In everyday life, passers-by saw some criminal flogged with a knotted rope or chained upright in an iron collar. They passed corpses hanging on the gibbet and decapitated heads and quartered bodies impaled on stakes on the city walls."

Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by rypskar on Thursday October 12, 2017 @03:50AM (#15456345)
>medieval peasant drinking mead all day by a stream with his friends

Mead was expensive since it require lots of honey and was mostly used for special occasions. Most they did drink weak beer because they had learned that in some places peoples drinking water did die more often than the peoples drinking beer. The beer was weak because they did not know how east works and it was probably flat. So don't confuse it with what we know as beer now.

I do also have a hard time believing they in general had more freedom, maybe the top 10% had more freedom than what many have now? Which is far from what the top 10% have now

Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by vacri on Thursday October 12, 2017 @02:28AM (#15456051)
That's a very romantic view of medieval times (link is broken, by the way). Half the year off for vacation? I hope you enjoy vacationing at home, because if you're a serf, you're going nowhere. If you're a noblewoman, you're as likely to be married off for politics as not. Women in general were markedly less free - barred from education, property, public life, so on and so forth.

To further your analogy, would you prefer to be a diabetic paraplegic in the modern era, or the medieval? Because you're not going to be able to medicate yourself with the insulin you need, and there's not much work for paraplegics to do if they're not born into money.

> Our 60 years of wage slavery in windowless offices might seem unconscionable to a medieval peasant drinking mead all day by a stream with his friends, even if he ends up dying at 50.

We have the opportunity to change our lives if we don't want the wage slavery; entrepreneurialism is the whole reason why this site exists. For a medieval peasant, they can't move into the nobility, their inventions are not protected, they frequently aren't allowed to move around, travel is dangerous, communication with anyone outside the area they grew up in is more difficult due to language differences, hobbies are limited largely to what you can build yourself, since trade for items is difficult and expensive... the list of restrictions goes on and on.

In any case, the peasants of yesteryear are analogous to the working class of today, and they don't work in offices, windowless or otherwise.

Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by TeMPOraL on Thursday October 12, 2017 @07:16AM (#15457134)
I generally agree with your line of reasoning but for one part:

> We have the opportunity to change our lives if we don't want the wage slavery; entrepreneurialism

Entrepreneuralism often is just another form of slavery. You exchange serving your boss 8 hours a day for serving your customers (and/or investors) 16 hours a day. Most businesses are not innovative problem solving endeavours, they're mundane servitude in highly competitive markets. If you're lucky, it may lead you to significantly more wealth than your dayjob; if you're not, you just wasted years of working 16h/day for less reward than you'd get working 8h/day in a regular job.

The slavery only ends when you don't have to do work for other people in exchange for resources necessary to live a decent life. As a society, we're nowhere near that yet.

(Thinking that starting your own business is freedom from the man is confusing irrelevant freedoms, like the ability to choose your customers, choose your logo, choose your working machine, with actually important freedoms, like choosing whether to have customers at all.)

Re:Roman Empire per capita GDP shows the Romans were poorer ... by ppeetteerr on Wednesday October 18, 2017 @04:05PM (#15502460)
We are all bound to our basic needs. Whether we satisfy them by earning a living in a windowless office, or hunting for food and potentially dying in the field, does not change the reason we all do what we do: for survival.

A person today is less of a slave to his environment than in the past, although this is more the case in Canada and Scandinavian countries, than in the US.

Now you could say that people worked less in past times, but you could also work half a year and enjoy the rest of your time labour-free, so long as you sacrifice a lot of luxuries (running water, police service, paved roads, fire department, any means of connectivity, etc.)