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Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by statictype on Sunday October 08, 2017 @11:41PM (#15431438)
What's different is that the button was being pushed by a human.

That human gets paid a salary and earns a living.

And that human could presumably choose not to push the button if the expresso machine tries to become sentient (in theory).

Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by greglindahl on Sunday October 08, 2017 @11:54PM (#15431475)
The vending machine still has many humans involved: building it involved humans, maintaining it involves humans. The difference is that the button is pushed by the customer. That's the same amount of human labor, actually, it's just that the customer isn't paying someone else for the button press.
Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by Houshalter on Monday October 09, 2017 @03:56AM (#15432161)
Lets say the vending machine costs $2,000 a year including maintenance and everything. That means there can't be more than $2,000 worth of human labor involved in it, neither in production or maintenance. That's an order of magnitude less labor involved than hiring a person. If it didn't save labor, there'd be no economic advantage to it after all.

On top of that, the jobs it does require are skilled. Engineers to design it, mechanics to repair it. They aren't jobs like a barista that you can get without any experience or education. Even the work of assembling it can be outsourced to some third world country, or automated itself.

Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by gm-conspiracy on Monday October 09, 2017 @05:51AM (#15432560)
That means there can't be more than $2,000 worth of human labor involved in it, neither in production or maintenance.

That is not necessarily true, as the company could be subsidizing its labor costs in order to gain salad-vending marketshare.

Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by petre on Monday October 09, 2017 @03:28AM (#15432089)
I believe the vending machine has greater work overhead and uses more materials than an actual human. Thnik about it: precut veggies stored in refrigerated (probably plastic) containers. Somebody has to supply and prepare the veggies. Some other human has to resupply the machine when it runs out of veggies. Some other human has to fix the vending machine when it stops working. Some other humans have to design the machine and assemble it, at least in part. With an actual human you'd only have to supply the raw veggies and the human worker would do all the preparation (using food processors), serving and processing payments. One could automate some tasks like payment processing or have two humans operate the salad bar: one that prepares and serves the salads and one that processes payments. This would avoid cooks switching between working with (dirty) cash and preparing salads.
Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by lemmings19 on Monday October 09, 2017 @04:05AM (#15432200)
I disagree and think the machine has less overhead. Yes there is a large cost upfront to develop and manufacture it. But once the machine has been designed and tested, it will never have to be designed again. Design is a one time cost.

Once manufacturing is underway, the process is typically made as efficient as possible and made to scale. The work that went into design and testing can now be scaled to thousands or millions of units which is a great return on investment. Each unit has a one time cost for materials used for parts, with some long term maintenence costs.

Operation requires only an electric energy draw. If that energy is from a clean source such as solar, this unit isn't having much of any further negative impact. Operation could last years or decades depending on design and whether or not the product is superceded, at which time its parts can be recycled. Even then, the time spent on design will be used to create the next version.

Supplying the machines with goods is already a task handled when goods are delivered to the location and stocked, so there isn't going to be much or any overhead added there. Plus, we can automate that too (self-driving vehicles for transportation, robots for the last leg of delivery and stocking).

Human workers do not scale in the same way that machines do, and aren't typically as efficient at this type of task.

Finding suitable human workers is difficult and can take considerable time and resources every time one is hired.

Human workers are expensive, and this is an ongoing neverending cost. This cost will not scale down as you hire more workers or work them for a longer time (unlike machines).

Human reliability is hit and miss. Also, you cannot work them 24/7. There is lots of downtime and you would require at least 3 or 4 humans to replace 1 machine if the task requires 24/7 uptime.

The enegry that humans consume and their waste is typically not effecient. Three meals a day, often including animal products which are costly in terms of resources and environmental impact. Then there's waste treatment for them. And the energy costs to deliver the food from a farm to their location, and even farm growing and harvesting.

None of this is as effecient or "green" as a renewable energy draw such as solar, wind, or hydroelectric delivered over a power line.

On many levels, humans are a poor replacement for machines in predictable tasks such as making a coffee or a sandwich for a chain restaurant. Humans are good for social work, and making coffee is not social.

In terms of someone needing a job, even if that job is meaningless and unnecessary, basic income should be provided instead. But that's a whole other conversation and we aren't there yet.

Point is: Machines are efficient. Social impact is a different conversation.

Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by astrodust on Monday October 09, 2017 @12:17AM (#15431546)
That human can, if properly trained and motivated, recognize when the coffee being served isn't coming out right. They can interface with customers and resolve complicated human problems, de-escalating when necessary to find a good outcome.

A robot has no way of knowing if the coffee will taste good or contains rat poison. It's just going through the motions. If it serves you a dud drink you can't argue with it, you just got scammed. Post an angry Yelp review if it makes you feel better.

Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by greglindahl on Monday October 09, 2017 @12:23AM (#15431570)
That's an argument for having a higher-value problem-solving employee around, not an argument for having several lower-value button-pushing employees around.

Fewer, higher value employees has been the trend in many industries for the past few hundred thousand years.

Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by SAI_Peregrinus on Monday October 09, 2017 @01:16AM (#15431720)
Or for better sensors on the robot. There's no fundamental reason it can't tell if the drink is correct.
Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by TeMPOraL on Monday October 09, 2017 @03:13AM (#15432051)
The fundamental reason it can't tell if the drink is correct is that "correct" is in the eye of the beholder. You cannot trivially formalize expectations any random human would have of a drink made by human.

You can, however, force people to lower their expectations until they can be trivially formalized. That's what happens with tea/coffee vending machines. The dispensed drink is really bad, but it's uniformly bad, and since people don't expect quality coffee from a vending machine, they don't complain.

Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by nasmorn on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @02:21AM (#15439776)
You can get better espresso out of the lavazza coffee machine on palatine hill in Rome than is served in many cafes in this world. So technologically it sure is possible to do better.
Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by saboot on Monday October 09, 2017 @03:04AM (#15432024)
Why do we need an extra person? There's already a human present, the customer. Let them submit the feedback and fix their coffee at the same time.
Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by petre on Monday October 09, 2017 @03:38AM (#15432110)
I don't want to get through the hurdle of contacting Big Co. through an automated form when the vending machine has scammed me. It's way easier with a human operator. Ever tried to dial into a call center and waited like 30 minutes after navigating through voice menus in order to talk to an actual human to fix your problem?
Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by adventured on Monday October 09, 2017 @03:56AM (#15432160)
The way this is going to work, to use McDonald's as an example, is that instead of having 40-50 total people operating a normal franchise location across 2 or 3 shifts, you're going to have 15-20.

The cashiers are gone. The fry cook is gone. The drive-thru order taker is gone. The cooks are gone.

You'll still have a preparer that will probably also do running (they'll bag the multiple, separate items up and take them to the front). You'll have a shift manager that will help with a bit of everything (eg if a customer has a problem with the order kiosk or payment). You'll still have a human cleaning the building and parking lot, taking out trash. There will also obviously be people routinely involved in machine maintenance, installation, etc.

There will be some complication with condiments and food layering. There will probably be a position for food ammo reloader, that keeps the machines loaded with whatever that machine cooks / prepares.

It would be possible to get rid of the bagger/runner, but it'd probably be cost prohibitive and needlessly complex to assemble the various robots on a line that could also bag properly.

At its best, eventually, this system will produce more food (1.5x to 4x I'd guess), at a lower per customer cost, with superior food safety (including hygiene). Then it's a question of how much of that gain gets competed away (benefiting customers) and how much goes into the pocket of the owners.

Starbucks will be similar. They won't get rid of all their humans, they'll reduce their number significantly.

It's likely to be a decades long, piece by piece, transition. The early results won't be spectacular for either customers or franchise owners, it'll take many years of gradual improvement.

Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by astrodust on Monday October 09, 2017 @10:26AM (#15434036)
The reason I buy coffee at a coffee shop is because I want it done properly, and "properly" is largely a subjective thing. A good shop will have someone who's intimately familiar with what they're preparing and will tune the machine at multiple times per day to get the right result.

A robot just does what it's told.

Starbucks used to have manual machines and the results were...variable. Some days you'd get a substandard drink, but if you got someone who knew what they were doing, the results were fantastic.

It's like before the coffee would be anywhere beteween a 6 and 9 out of 10. Now they're consistently 7.5 out of 10 every time. Boring, predictable, never bad, but never great.

Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by petre on Monday October 09, 2017 @03:32AM (#15432098)
That's probably why humans start hitting vending machines when they just gobble up the cash and fail to operate properly.
Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by jamesrcole on Monday October 09, 2017 @03:10AM (#15432042)
> A robot has no way of knowing if the coffee will taste good or contains rat poison

Eventually automated systems ought to be able to do this better than most people can. Why couldn't there be engineered sensors that could detect such things very well?

Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by j7ake on Monday October 09, 2017 @03:15AM (#15432056)
Because there is no theory linking interaction of molecules to flavour yet, although there are some preliminary work from some labs on this (with beer)
Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by setr on Monday October 09, 2017 @03:37AM (#15432108)
Seeing as humans don't usually taste their coffee before serving, identifying flavour is probably not strictly necessary to the task.

And given that the act of making good-enough coffee isn't a very difficult task (given how readily available and quickly trained "baristas" are), and how mechanical the process is already, im not sure there's anything to suggest it isn't do-able. Its more likely a matter of cost and scale

Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by freeflight on Monday October 09, 2017 @06:05AM (#15432602)
Smelling is already a form of tasting, just like looking at how it behaves because we humans are really good at combining our senses to get the input we look for, that's why most people usually don't taste the coffee before serving, unless it's smelling/looking funny while brewing.

Replicating this with electrical sensors is a pretty complex task we still haven't managed to get working, after all we are not only talking about replicating the sense of taste but also the sense of smelling and how they interact with each other.

Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by setr on Monday October 09, 2017 @12:31PM (#15435261)
You don't actually have to replicate the interaction though, you just need to identify the particular range of smells that people accept, and have the machine capable of detecting it.

Generating a brand new style of good coffee might need the interaction though

Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by freeflight on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @05:24AM (#15440473)
But different people are accepting of different tastes and even those change with age, what people accept as nice smelling/tasting food can be quite subjective because the very same smell can be overpowering to some while appealing to others.

How to calibrate a sensor for something like that on a per user basis? I don't know, but apparently it's possible because "electronic noses" do exist but are mostly used in laboratory settings, probably on account of their price.

There's also a reason why we still use pigs and dogs for work that require good smelling senses, like search&rescue or truffle foraging. Training these animals is very expensive, but it still seems to be the cheaper option compared to building "smellobots", so I doubt smelling sensor are far enough along to be put into a ton of kitchen bots at small cost.

Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by HeyLaughingBoy on Monday October 09, 2017 @04:36PM (#15437248)
Its more likely a matter of cost and scale

This is not a trivial matter! Cost is entirely the reason a host of technologically-possible automation hasn't happened outside a lab.

Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by jamesrcole on Monday October 09, 2017 @06:12AM (#15432630)
I said "eventually". Are you saying it will never be possible?
Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by astrodust on Monday October 09, 2017 @10:27AM (#15434044)
Never is a long time, but it's also a theroetical.

The sun will eventually engulf the Earth rendering this argument irreelvant.

Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by jamesrcole on Monday October 09, 2017 @09:59PM (#15438753)
It works both ways, though. I was responding to a claim with an implicit "never" possible. Like you say, such a claim is theoretical, and I wanted to ask how that person knew it would never be possible.

Smell, taste and poison are all matters of physical molecules and how these interact with human physiology. We already understand these to some extent. We can already build devices that can detect some of these things to some extent. We have no grounds to say it's impossible for a human-level ability of it to be engineered. (Note that lack of positive evidence against X is not the same as positive evidence for X).

Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by rapind on Monday October 09, 2017 @02:37PM (#15436312)
This would be so much easier if we just replaced the consumer with a more efficient AI.
Re:A Robot Makes a Mean Caesar Salad, but Will It Cost Jobs? by bluedino on Monday October 09, 2017 @08:07AM (#15433131)
Real-life George Jetson