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Re:China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy by vidarh on Thursday October 05, 2017 @06:41AM (#15408079)
Norway at least have no current interest in EU membership. Support for EU membership has for a long time been so low (last year polls indicated 71% no, compared to an almost even result in the '94 referendum) that there's no prospect of another EU referendum anytime soon.
Re:China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy by avar on Thursday October 05, 2017 @08:40AM (#15408629)
Norway and Iceland don't need to become full EU members for a China FTA creating conflicts between them and the EU. There's already overlap between products covered under Iceland's FTA with China and its FTA with the EU/EEA, but in practice it doesn't matter much because any gains from lower import duties are negated by expensive shipping from Iceland.

If Norway signs a similar agreement an EEA country with open land borders with the EU will have a FTA with China. At that point the EU would either need to never liberalize certain trade with the EEA least Norway become a shipping and distribution hub for Chinese goods into the EU, or accept that to get closer integration with Norway and the other EEA members.

There has been increasing liberalization of trade between the EU and EEA members, just last month the EU and Iceland agreed to drop almost all import duties on agricultural products[1].

In addition to all of that, with global warming gearing up the Northeast Passage[2] might become a viable shipping route between China and Europe, at that point shipping from China to Norway will be the shortest shipping route between China and Europe by far. Sailing from China to Europe via the NEP to Norway cuts time at sea and fuel consumption by more than half compared to going via the Suez Canal.

1. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20170911IPR...

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Passage

Re:China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy by Reason077 on Thursday October 05, 2017 @10:43AM (#15409544)
"If Norway signs a similar agreement an EEA country with open land borders with the EU will have a FTA with China. ... Norway become a shipping and distribution hub for Chinese goods into the EU"

No, it doesn't work like that. Norway is not a member of the European customs union. Goods moving between Norway and the EU are subject to customs checks and, potentially, tariffs. You can't just trans-ship Chinese goods landed in Norway onward into the EU without customs declarations, inspections, and all that.

Of course, private citizens can travel pretty much freely across the EU-Norway border. Goods can move freely in small, personal-use quantities (Norwegians certainly like to shop across the border at cheaper Swedish supermarkets, etc). But as soon as you start shipping stuff in commercial volumes, it is subject to customs just like any other Chinese goods coming in to the EU would be.

Re:China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy by avar on Thursday October 05, 2017 @11:30AM (#15409964)
I understand that Norway doesn't have duty-free import of goods into the EU. What I'm referring to is that the existing tolls and import duties weren't negotiated with the assumption that Norway has tariff-free access to the biggest producer of cheap goods in the world.

I elaborated a bit on this in a sibling comment[1], but let's say for example that the import duties on electric drills from China into the EU are set at 30%, but the same duty for Norway is 10%.

After signing a FTA with China Norway can simply import the drills at 0%, then re-export them to Germany at a rate of 10%.

Even if they can't simply re-export finished products a Norwegian company could buy cheap Chinese parts for making drills, then finish constructing them domestically and export them to the EU.

Even if they don't directly re-export anything from China Norwegian industry would be more competitive than its neighbors, e.g. a Norwegian paper mill might buy cheap acids for industrial from China that their neighbors in Sweden don't have access to. This would make Norwegian paper cheaper than Swedish paper, and Sweden would pressure the EU to adjust its import duties accordingly.

Thus the EU will start having to either treat Norway and Iceland more like China in terms of tariffs and import duties, or to treat China more like Norway and Iceland.

1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15409391

Re:China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy by Reason077 on Thursday October 05, 2017 @01:27PM (#15410881)
Norway certainly can't import Chinese drills at 0% and then re-export them to Germany under the Norwegian tariff. Those drills are still of Chinese origin, and re-labeling them otherwise would be illegal. Only Norwegian drills can benefit from Norway's 10% tariff.

As for goods of mixed origin (manufactured in Norway but benefiting from Chinese inputs/components), that is indeed where things get complicated. And that's one of the reasons why trade agreements typically run many thousands of pages and take years to negotiate! But the WTO has pretty comprehensive "Rules of origin" to use as a starting point.

Re:China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy by avar on Thursday October 05, 2017 @02:20PM (#15411354)
Yes legally it can't, but enforcing this on an open border with a direct road connection to the rest of the EU is going to be quite interesting.

Right now this situation exists in theory, but in practice pretty much nobody in the EU has any cause to try to import something via Norway, since its trade deals are quite similar to what the EU itself has.

But the EU has huge tariffs on some Chinese products, including slapping China with 30-70% tariffs on basic metal alloys in some cases[1][2].

The difference can be so large that it becomes beneficial for you as a private EU citizen to drive up to Norway yourself to fetch e.g. basic alloys at lower prices.

Nothing remotely like this situation exists within the land borders of Schengen today. There's the agreement with Iceland, but as it's an island enforcement is much easier.

1. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/09/reuters-america-update-2-eu-...

2. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/07/european-un...

Re:China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy by DRAOBE on Thursday October 05, 2017 @09:31AM (#15408963)
Uh, what sort of conflict do you think China could provoke? I have a hard time seeing a free salmon treaty with China giving rise to more conflict than normal neighbor disputes.

If Norway started selling all its oil to China, then we'd have something. But the EU borders Norway, and China doesn't so there isn't much in favour of it. In addition, China doesn't border the EU, so I don't think it sees much value in a divided EU (as opposed to Russia). To them it is probably more interesting to distance the EU from the US.

Re:China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy by avar on Thursday October 05, 2017 @10:23AM (#15409391)
I don't know what sort of FTA Norway was in the process of negotiating in 2010, but if it's anything like the treaty it signed with Iceland in 2013 calling it a "free salmon treaty" is the understatement of the century.

You can read the full list of tariff concessions by Iceland[1], as well as the rest of the treaty[2] MFA website.

It covers anything from food, tools, machinery, to raw ore and metals to finished nuclear reactors. Almost all tariffs on Chinese goods entering Iceland are set at 0%.

This means that Iceland (or hypothetically Norway in the future) can import say cheap industrial acids from China, and use them to make finished products that could be sold to the EU market using existing EU/EEA trade deals that give preferential tariff treatment to EEA members.

That's the potential conflict I'm talking about. China's setting up agreements where a country with wide access to its internal markets has better access to cheap Chinese goods than other EU/EEA countries.

Which means that either the EU needs to slow down liberalization of trade with Iceland (and perhaps Norway in the future) least they essentially become hubs to evade EU duties on Chinese goods, which'll pull those countries further into the Chinese sphere of influence.

Or it'll need to make similar deals itself, or otherwise live with the resulting trade imbalance with Iceland and Norway becoming re-exporters of Chinese goods.

1. https://www.mfa.is/media/fta-kina/Vidauki-I---Tollaaetlanir-...

2. https://www.mfa.is/foreign-policy/trade/free-trade-agreement...

Re:China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy by nolok on Thursday October 05, 2017 @06:48AM (#15408109)
I agree with your comment, but given the tone / details of the questions you answer to I would like to add "... Compared to their current situation".

Norway's low will to join the EU as full member is not because they don't like it or are moving away from it , but because they already have everything they want from it, and a few exceptions specifically "for them" in a custom made package they're fine paying the price of.

They pretty much have a "vanity membership, gold level"

Re:China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy by doktrin on Thursday October 05, 2017 @06:57AM (#15408162)
> Norway's low will to join the EU as full member is not because they don't like it or are moving away from it , but because they already have everything they want from it

These aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Public sentiment has historically leaned towards EU skepticism, something which hasn't been helped by witnessing the EU's broad managerial incompetence (and occasionally petty vindictiveness) on everything from Greece to Brexit.

Re:China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy by mistermann on Thursday October 05, 2017 @07:19AM (#15408250)
I'm curious why everyone laughed at England for Brexit but has seemingly no opinion on Norway, it seems illogical.
Re:China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy by doktrin on Thursday October 05, 2017 @07:41AM (#15408324)
That comparison seems a bit off to me. The UK is more than 10x the size of all EEA members combined. The EEA exists / works because its members are largely peripheral. The UK by contrast is a regional superpower. On this basis alone - particularly when accounting for Brussels' massive bruised ego - it was always a bit unrealistic to expect a neat and tidy new EEA-style trade agreement between the UK and the EU.

Not only that, but a central theme in the runup to Brexit was improved border & immigration control. This is something which EEA members don't enjoy themselves, both via Schengen and the EEA's bilateral work permits. Hence, Brexit voters were sold a best-of-all-possible-worlds scenario where the UK would somehow manage to land an EEA style trade deal without literally any of its possible downsides. That seems optimistic to the point of naivete.

Re:China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy by Kurtz79 on Thursday October 05, 2017 @08:23AM (#15408530)
"The UK is more than 10x the size of all EEA members combined. The EEA exists / works because its members are largely peripheral."

My guess is that by EEA you refer to those members that are not already part of the EU, although technically the EEA includes both EU members and countries with a special agreement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

Re:China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy by doktrin on Thursday October 05, 2017 @09:22AM (#15408904)
Yeah, that's correct. In my experience 'EEA' is a well understood shorthand for 'non-EU EEA members', since that's the context under which 'EEA' is most often used.
Re:China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy by dagw on Thursday October 05, 2017 @07:23AM (#15408270)
Norway's path has been a steady path with largely rational smaller steps, mostly towards closer EU integration. The UK took a single, huge, unplanned step into the void without any rational debate or planning on what would come next.

People aren't laughing at the UK for leaving the EU per se. but for the insane and terribly thought out chain of blunders that led to them taking that leap.

Re:China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy by vidarh on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @04:19AM (#15448119)
Norway is in a special case by being substantially wealthier to the extent that Norway can basically buy its way out of most of the problems the UK has.

At the same time, through the EEA Norway is much closer associated to the EU than the Brexit crowd wants the UK to be. Including e.g. accepting Schengen which the UK didn't participate in even as a member of the EU.

Re:China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy by danmaz74 on Thursday October 05, 2017 @07:29AM (#15408293)
Norway is part of the single market (including free movement of people) and benefits from it, so, what they did is completely different from what the UK is going to do. But, most importantly, it's much much more disruptive to first join and then pull out that not joining at all.
Re:China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy by mamon on Thursday October 05, 2017 @09:09AM (#15408815)
So basicaly Norway got itself the best possible deal: all benefits of EU membership without any of the downsides (e.g. common currency or political correctnes bullshit).
Re:China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy by icebraining on Thursday October 05, 2017 @09:52AM (#15409100)
If anything, the UK had the best deal: they also don't have a common currency, and unlike Norway they didn't have mandatory open borders (Schengen). I have no idea what do you mean by the EU imposing political correctness, though.
Re:China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy by bergjs on Thursday October 05, 2017 @10:31AM (#15409464)
This is not correct as far as I know. The Norwegian government wanted to join the EU because in the current state they have a lot of obligations to be allowed to the single market and they even have to pay a large sum for it but they get no say in it. Voting rights are limited to full EU members. They are getting a bad deal, just like the UK will, simply because the population does not want to join the EU.

I want also to point out that this would not have happened if Norway had been in the EU already in 2010 because China would not risk trade with all of the EU because of such a small incident.

Re:China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy by danmaz74 on Friday October 06, 2017 @05:50AM (#15415546)
It's the best possible deal only if you don't care that you don't have any democratic influence on all decisions involving the single market - you just need to accept all regulations as decided by member states. Which I guess is fine for Norway and Switzerland, but wouldn't suit every country. For sure it wouldn't suit the UK.
Re:China Forces Norway to Adhere to ‘One China’ Policy by vidarh on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @04:18AM (#15448114)
Actual public skepticism to even EEA membership is higher than it's been in a very long time.