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Re:Zucktown, USA by chis on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @02:37AM (#15398675)
The linked anti-union article is more interesting than the original article IMO. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/07/silicon-valleys...

I would tend to agree with the tech-ie opinion that unions are becoming obselete in the US. Unions existed to protect workers who were unskilled and interchangeable; the endgame of tech is to automate all those jobs. But obviously I’m not a labor scholar and this is just an unfounded opinion.

Re:Zucktown, USA by humanrebar on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @06:19AM (#15399380)
> ...unions are becoming obselete in the US...

They don't make sense for knowledge workers. Knowledge workers are rarely interchangeable, so standardizing contracts, job titles, pay schedules, working conditions, etc., makes little sense. There is also the chance for protectionism (closed shops) that runs counter to the freelance culture in tech.

Some sort of worker-administered group could make a lot of sense. But maybe a guild or cooperative instead.

Services that would be useful, especially (or only) if employers weren't paying the bill:

* Personal negotiation agents

* Career consultants. Lots of engineers are very underpaid and need some help holding their boss accountable. Or finding the next job.

* (Re)training. Engineers shouldn't specialize themselves into early retirement.

* Lobbying and marketing. Do you want BigCo telling your congressman what you think?

* Independent research and reporting on work environments. Some push back on penny-wise, pound-foolish facilities decisions.

* Charitable technology work not under a corporate brand

* Insurance, modulo whether competitive tax advantages can be arranged. Setting up pools for disability and life insurance, at least. Maybe healthcare if the tax advantages can be worked out.

Re:Zucktown, USA by ForHackernews on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @07:57AM (#15399824)
A guild is just a union by another name. The Screenwriters Guild, the Screen Actors Guild, and the various professional sports unions (e.g. NFLPA) are all good examples of unions representing highly-paid, non-interchangable workers.
Re:Zucktown, USA by humanrebar on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @01:46PM (#15402448)
I actually had those in mind as close to what might make sense. Though agent responsibilities might be assumed by the guild as well.

However, the organizations you list have gone in strike as leverage in collective negotiations. That is an aspect I doubt makes sense for tech outside of basic health or ethical concerns. Both the collective bargaining and the striking.

Re:Zucktown, USA by pault on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @08:03AM (#15399856)
I never thought I was underpaid until a year ago when I asked for double my previous salary (now in low six figures) at a new position and nobody blinked. I had been leaving a LOT of money on the table and didn't know it!
Re:Zucktown, USA by notyourday on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @11:37AM (#15401225)
> They don't make sense for knowledge workers. Knowledge workers are rarely interchangeable, so standardizing contracts, job titles, pay schedules, working conditions, etc., makes little sense. There is also the chance for protectionism (closed shops) that runs counter to the freelance culture in tech.

If that was the case, no one would have been whining about H1B import companies killing US knowledge jobs.

Re:Zucktown, USA by humanrebar on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @01:33PM (#15402269)
I think your conclusion is premised on a false dichotomy: that either tech jobs are standardized or H1B visas are harmless. There are many ways both can be false at the same time.
Re:Zucktown, USA by notyourday on Thursday October 05, 2017 @08:38AM (#15408624)
Oh no, jobs are not standardized. They workers doing those jobs are interchangeable.
Re:Zucktown, USA by zdkl on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @02:44AM (#15398699)
I very strongly disagree with the "unskilled" part. I am not a labor scholar either, but unions serve to federate common interests of workers who may not individually have leverage against their employer or relevant regulation body.

Because your employer in tech can afford to give you a lifestyle easily in the highest couple percentiles doesn't mean you aren't replaceable and that you won't need representation as a class of worker at some point.

Re:Zucktown, USA by mobiletelephone on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @03:05AM (#15398765)
Wages are high if the supply of labour is low and the employer has money for wages. If supply is low and the employer does not have money, then the job won't exist. This is why tech workers wouldn't benefit from a union very much.
Re:Zucktown, USA by emodendroket on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @09:42AM (#15400372)
Has everyone already forgotten that Google and Apple wage-fixing scandal? In the real world there are factors beyond the Econ 101 stuff.
Re:Zucktown, USA by pdpi on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @08:10AM (#15399880)
You're assuming that wages are the only thing worth arguing over. Work environment, tools, work/life balance are all things that you might want, and where you might need leverage to get them.
Re:Zucktown, USA by emodendroket on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @09:43AM (#15400376)
Also the stuff about age discrimination. It's weird to me that so many people here are unconcerned about that because, like... we're all going to be old someday (hopefully).
Re:Zucktown, USA by TeMPOraL on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @04:36AM (#15399052)
It's not gonna last forever this way. Unions are not very useful for developers now, but you might want to have them already in-place by the time they become needed.
Re:Zucktown, USA by eru on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @06:02AM (#15399328)
Unions are mostly there to keep out newcomers and non-union members. Eg strike breakers.

I'm internationally mobile, so I'm often the newcomer.

(And from a philosophical point of view, programmers are so well paid that even taking that down a nodge to the benefit of the general public would be fine. What we have to make sure is that forming new tech companies becomes easier and easier---so that any general cheapening of programmers benefits the customers and not the owners of companies.

Traditionally, unions are the very opposite of lowering barriers to market entry.)

Re:Zucktown, USA by TeMPOraL on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @06:29AM (#15399433)
> programmers are so well paid that even taking that down a nodge to the benefit of the general public would be fine

The problem is, taking that down a nodge will not benefit the general public. All the surplus will be eaten up by the companies.

I suppose there are two ways to view this - putting up barriers to entry vs. preventing wages from being driven down by encouraging everyone and their dog to become coders. At this point I sort of see it as both at the same time.

The reasons unions could be useful in the future is both to preserve a reasonable standard of living for tech employees and to help oppose unethical demands from employers. Right now, tech employees have some leverage over their bosses. Without unions, this will eventually end.

Re:Zucktown, USA by eru on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @01:16PM (#15402090)
> [...] All the surplus will be eaten up by the companies.

That's why we need to keep working on lowering barriers to entry. (Not just in software but all industries.)

Whenever there's an industry where owning a company confers outsized excess returns, I want a hundred copycats to come in and compete away the margins. (For lots of industries one of the most straight-forward way to get that is to make entries by foreign companies easy. This way a country can benefit without necessarily having to grow a local ecosystem of startups first.)

I am happy to encourage everyone and their dogs to become coders, if they can hack it. Over the long run and average over many people, income is ultimately determined by productivity. Let's grow the pie.

Re:Zucktown, USA by freeflight on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @07:10AM (#15399627)
> All the surplus will be eaten up by the companies.

That can easily be fixed by plugging tax evasion loopholes and generally taxing higher.

If there's a will then there's a way, the problem is pretty much finding the way everybody agrees on.

Re:Zucktown, USA by eru on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @01:17PM (#15402094)
See https://transformationdeal.org/2016/04/24/how-a-basic-income... for a very straight forward proposal.
Re:Zucktown, USA by freeflight on Friday October 06, 2017 @10:14AM (#15416919)
Nice to see something like this adapted to the US, I've seen comparable proposals in Germany [0], also build on a similar base of taxing land value/production facilities.

Imho it seems like pretty valid approach considering land is one of the few resources we recognize as actually being finite, so it's a good place to start for building a "base".

On the other hand it's quite frustrating how accepting we have become of creating "wealth" out of nothing by printing paper money but if we try to do the same thing based on something actually tangible, like land, people lose their shit going "you can't just make up money", sure we can, we do it all the time.

[0] http://www.wissensmanufaktur.net/plan-b

Re:Zucktown, USA by eru on Monday October 09, 2017 @11:21AM (#15434552)
I don't see the connection between paper money and land value tax. One of the reasons economists like taxing land is that the supply is perfectly inelastic---literally fixed to be precise. So a tax can't distort the market.

If you can read German and like some historical musings in this direction (including about money), do read Silvio Gesell. https://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~roehrigw/gesell/nwo/nwo.pdf

Re:Zucktown, USA by zdkl on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @03:18AM (#15398817)
Can you elaborate on the relation of your second clause and your conclusion? I'm not seeing how this relates to the role and nature of unions.
Re:Zucktown, USA by notacoward on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @09:13AM (#15400199)
> Unions existed to protect workers who were unskilled and interchangeable

I think that's pretty offensive to a lot of tradespeople. If you think plumbers, carpenters, or electricians are unskilled, try doing what they do. Unions protected both skilled and unskilled workers. Whether they continue to do so, or whether they can serve in that role for information workers, is quite an interesting question, but skilled vs. unskilled is not at the crux of it.

Re:Zucktown, USA by notyourday on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @11:36AM (#15401209)
They are definitely interchangeable. What currently is happening is that the bottom 95th percentile of people in software engineering and product are discovering that they are also completely utterly interchangeable.
Re:Zucktown, USA by nerfhammer on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @02:47AM (#15398713)
Unions seem to have more tractability where you expect to have the same employer for life.
Re:Zucktown, USA by eru on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @06:04AM (#15399337)
It's a bit hard to talk about unions in general. Eg the Americans have these unions for people working in the entertainment industry (eg actors guild or so?), and those people usually work on a project basis, don't they?

On a historical note, I am currently reading A Generation of Materialism. The book has some very interesting bits about the early history of unions in Europe.

Re:Zucktown, USA by nerfhammer on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @11:33AM (#15401186)
Of course. If I think of cases where people might expect to have the same employer for life I think you'll be more likely to find unionization there. Not that it cannot happen outside of that condition.
Re:Zucktown, USA by emodendroket on Wednesday October 04, 2017 @09:41AM (#15400363)
The union is obsolete because workers are more interchangeable than ever? That is, uh, not how I would read it.