http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/13/mr-money-mustache-...
"The secret is that my wife is no longer really retired, and in fact she started a business that is now big enough to FUND OUR ENTIRE FAMILY'S LIFESTYLE."
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/03/06/etsy-shop/
If not outright dishonest, it certainly gives the off appearance that you can't put any weight in the numbers he is throwing out.
I guess I'm one of those "retirement police" who hates seeing a huckster give bad advice while eschewing talking about the real increase in realized risk you take by retiring early and not considering it in your plan. As one of the previous comments stated: your budget is not static, investment returns are not guaranteed, life events and medical situations change drastically.
So when I see, "I made it so can you", I want to respond, "Come back to me when you are 90 and on your death bed and talk with me again." I've seen the cancer treatment bills and what they do to someone with 10x your "financial independent" worth.
his family could cover all of their living expenses from investment income alone.
When you think about it, this is pretty much what we mean by "normal" retirement as well. If a 70 year old retiree does some maintenance on his rental property we don't accuse him of lying about being retired.
Your point about medical bills doesn't really hold water. I'm sure plenty of unlucky people who retired at a more conventional age end up having to come out of retirement because of an unforeseen tragedy.
Unless you want to change the definition of "retired" to: "having sufficient investment income to cover any possible expense that you or your family could possibly incur from now until your death, without ever doing a single hour of paid work"
I don't agree with MMM all the time but accusing him of not being retired does seem like a pointless exercise in semantics.
That's what he's doing when he says he is "retired" and yet works odd jobs to make money, or his wife sells things on Etsy for fun. I do think there's something behind the idea that it's more fun to do money-generating activities when you don't need the money they generate.
Also, his talk is pretty funny (and a good intro to his way of thinking for those who haven't read any of his stuff). Worth a watch.
to me the point of retirement is to be able to wake up at 9 and go for a walk or travel or reading a book. Not going to 3 different part time jobs.
In your retirement, you'd choose to walk and travel and read books. Those are good hobbies! What if eventually you want to get into something like woodworking (a very popular hobby)? What if - gasp - you sell some of your woodworking creations for money? Does that invalidate your retirement?
Needing money isn't binary in any case. I may or may not need more money. But maybe I'll be glad I had it some day. Of, perhaps unlike MMM, maybe I'll buy something or take a trip someplace with the extra money that I wouldn't have otherwise done.
I don't think I'd give up programming though. I really enjoy it. Maybe after tinkering on a bunch of my own projects that nobody ever sees, I would get bored of that (pretty sure I would anyway). I'd probably get an itch to do something that other people can use too. And then it's likely there'd be money involved.
But also, "going to 3 different part time jobs" isn't really a good way to look at it. If someone asks you "hey, do you want to help me build a deck?" , there's a world of difference between saying yes because you need the money vs. saying yes because you enjoy the work and want something to do.
I would not underestimate being in the position to walk away. Even if you never act on it, that feeling of control is worth something. (see also: "fuck you money").
The Etsy shop could fund the family's lifestyle. The family is already funded by investment returns. They could shut the shop down and continue living just as they do. MMM is just using "fund our family's lifestyle" to give an idea of how much the shop is pulling in (about $30k/year).
MMM's blog posts are very basic - you won't safely retire early if all you do is read them. Fortunately, people are responsible and put slightly more effort into planning their entire lives than uncritically following some blog post on the internet. For example, many people are planning on using a 3.25% withdrawal rate rather than 4%, and have much more in bonds than the 100%-equities-or-bust message on the blog.
His blog's good for reinforcing that you can spend less money when you already have money, so it's heartening in that it tells you your target income for retirement can be much lower than the income you need pre-retirement. It's not especially helpful for getting there.
Indeed. And in some cases those critiques are spot on and shouting them down or inventing catchy names for those critiquing the ideas / principles / choice of definition of words does not necessarily mean that they are wrong.
This is an element of cult behavior where the cult is trained to respond reflexively to criticisms and in fact is egged on to shout down outsiders. See also: certain politicians.
I think this kind of behavior rather cheapens the whole MMM brand but if you feel that it strengthens it then that is your privilege.
In my not so humble opinion as soon as you resort to namecalling instead of reasoned debate then you probably would have lost the debate. MMM is rife with such traits and even though I very much subscribe to most of the basic tenets of the way he lives I would not respond to those who question my choices or choice of words by calling them names. Instead I'd try to figure out how our situations differ and to address the criticism directly rather than to try to drive a wedge between those that criticize and those that are 'true followers'. After all, if a critique is mundane then it is nothing a FAQ can't answer.
I dislike cliques, always have and probably always will.
I believe he has some rental income from properties he owns and he claims to only spend $25K or so per year, so the answer is probably closest to 1. His brand/blog does seem to be quite lucrative though. At this point, it would probably make more sense to limit the effort rather than shut anything down.
I just helped harvest the blueberries. Next, I'll be filling my own freezers during hunting season and I'll be guiding others to help fill their freezers. I harvest and process the animals on the neighboring farm, more so if I'm to be purchasing the results. I cut down trees for my own firewood, but I've helped the crew that harvests for commercial reasons. I own a share in a few franchises, and it is not unknown for me to come help on snowy days or even just to help clean up at close. I not only plow my own snow, but I plow it for other people, I'll even shovel for them.
Some of this makes me money, some of it costs me money.
I'm not sure retired is the right word? I don't have to do it, but I like keeping busy. Surely, there could be a better word than 'retired?'
I think "retired" is OK. A lot (most?) retired people who are healthy do something whether it's just some DIY around the house or volunteering. Of course, these days there are opportunities to pick up some dollars through various gig economy things though I would definitely have to need the money.
The lines are more blurred than they used to be though. I've known quite a few consultants who basically wound things down over time--not actively pursuing work as much but happy to spend some time and cash some checks with existing clients.
I'm not sure how people do it. They retire and seem to do a whole lot of nothing. They may travel a little, maybe putter in the garden, but they mostly seem to watch television and hang out with other old people.
I retired fairly young. That may account for some of the difference. I try to have hobbies that keep me both physically and mentally occupied. Being unoccupied doesn't work well for me.
If he wanted to stop all those projects and never do anything again, he could. But that would probably be boring, so he pursues things that interest him, some of which net him income.
He's gone over his family's spending before, if you want to read more - http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/01/16/exposed-the-mmm-fa...
re·tired rəˈtī(ə)rd/Submit adjective 1. having left one's job and ceased to work.
FWIW, MMM did blog about giving away $100,000 of his blog windfall last year (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/10/26/notes-on-giving-a...) and plans to give away more.
definition of retired:
Dictionary
retired re·tired rəˈtī(ə)rd/Submit adjective 1. having left one's job and ceased to work. "a retired teacher" synonyms: former, ex-, past, in retirement, superannuated More 2. archaic (of a place) quiet and secluded; not seen or frequented by many people. "this retired corner of the world"
What about slots?
What about buying antiques, and you wind up with something worth a bunch of money?
I think calling it work requires the intent of earning money. And I agree that MMM is no longer retired.
Claims they live off of 'About $22,000' after saying that his 30k$ home addition does not count in his budget because it's not a necessary expense... "Finish materials for my house and the homes of some friends/family. Does not include the $30k detached Studio I built."
That's extremely deceptive.
In what way? His passive investments were bringing in far more than his spending, so in what sense was he "overselling" it?
Retirement means not having to work, period.
Where did you hear he had to work?
Being retired or financially independent is really about being able to do what you like when you want to and not having to worry about money. Choosing not to work at all simply to conform to what other people's expectations about what you're "allowed" to do if you call yourself retired is kind of silly.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/13/mr-money-mustache-...
The blog happened to take off and bring a windfall of money that allowed him to make some purchases he might not have otherwise made, but he posts his budget every year and it's pretty clear he could easily live off only his investment income, and does for the most part. He also gave a six-figure amount away to charity last year.
That said, some of the blog money is going into non-index investments like mmm hq - http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/08/02/introducing-the-mm...
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/05/19/2016-spending/
tl;dr - He is still very frugal, unless you count his business expenses. He definitely works on his business and brings in income, but he gives much of it away.
Also if you look at the post you linked "Does not include the $30k detached Studio I built." 30k$ is more than a LOT of people gross annually in the U.S. and he claims it doesn't count as an expense which conveniently keeps his budget 30k$ smaller than it in fact was.
According to the U.S Census Bureau "The per capita income for the overall population in 2008 was $26,964; for non-Hispanic Whites, it was $31,313; for Blacks, it was $18,406; for Asians, it was $30,292; and for Hispanics, it was $15,674." which are all less than his 30k$ "hey guys it doesn't count I added a whole new room to my house" creative budget.
He definitely has enough money to retire forever, but chooses to keep running the blog and doing interviews because he enjoys it, and it's something to do.
According to this New Yorker article, the blog makes hundreds of thousands a year. So now his 'early retirement' is starting to look like 'smart career change for getting much richer.'
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/02/29/mr-money-musta...
I suspect the unrealized worth of his brand is in the $50-100mm range. He has a huge cult following (his words) among some of the highest earning members of society.
It seems like he has a brand that is pretty lucrative, so it’s unclear to me if he:
1. has enough money to be functionally retired at his current lifestyle, but chooses to continue his brand anyway,
2. has enough money to be functionally retired, but not at his current lifestyle, and so chooses to continue his brand,
3. cannot functionally retire and simply “transitioned” from professional software development to professional blogging.
I follow the logic of his blog series (reduce spending dramatically, increase savings dramatically, invest optimally), but I can’t tell how much of it contributes to his current lifestyle.