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Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by KirinDave on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:20PM (#15321788)
Women in the United States do not have a universal right to health care. Even ignoring affordability, many localities have made it effectively impossible to obtain health care services that are related to reproductive health care.

If these services were a right (even at the level of "you have a right to purchase these if you can afford them") that practice would be illegal and perhaps even unconstitutional.

And this does more than affect women seeking abortions. Many women with hormonal regulation issues cannot get the care and medication they need because access to medicines which are also birth control is not a right. Largely because of religious objections.

Meanwhile men have an unchallenged right to vasectomies. Feel free to correct me, but it appears to be legal and obtainable as a procedure in every state.

We could also point to evidence that there is a practical lack of rights to fair trials in sexual assault cases, but I'll leave that to someone else.

Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by deepnotderp on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:36PM (#15321878)
> Women in the United States do not have a universal right to health care

No one does. Overall in the US, greater amounts are spent on/by women (https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Sta...).

Men don't even have birth control, although that is generally no fault of anyone (although searching up "feminist opposition to male birth control" brings up some interesting hits: https://www.google.com/search?q=feminist+opposition+to+male+...)

I'm pretty sure female sterilizations aren't banned anywhere in the US either.

About sexual assault cases and lack of rights pertaining to due process, I would suggest that the evidence points to the opposite: https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/laura-kipniss-endle...

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/09/the-ba...

Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by KirinDave on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:50PM (#15321952)
> Men don't even have birth control, although that is generally no fault of anyone

... What?

> female sterilizations aren't banned anywhere in the US either.

They are as a matter of practice unobtainable in many states that have tried to engage in moral panic over abortion, since many of the same clinics that provide such services are viewed as abortion providers.

> About sexual assault cases and lack of rights pertaining to due process, I would suggest that the evidence points to the opposite:

Thanks for providing a link to a broad survey of data and not a cherry picked article.

Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by deepnotderp on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:52PM (#15321963)
> > Men don't even have birth control, although that is generally no fault of anyone ... What?

They don't have the option of birth control, what's confusing about that?

> They are as a matter of practice unobtainable in many states that have tried to engage in moral panic over abortion, since many of the same clinics that provide such services are viewed as abortion providers.

As far as I understand such clinics are cut off from federal/state funding, in line with the Hyde amendment, and in only three states, right? I'm not sure how this qualifies as systematic oppression of women.

Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by KirinDave on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:57PM (#15321987)
A definitionally systematic defunding is proposed and you question if it is systematic or oppressive?

Okay.

Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by deepnotderp on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:59PM (#15321995)
And where do men get state funded birth control?
Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by KirinDave on Saturday September 23, 2017 @06:07PM (#15322037)
The historically popular national insurance subsidization program that is part of the ACA.

But also vasectomies are an unremarkable part of what many government subsidized clinics.

Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by deepnotderp on Saturday September 23, 2017 @06:15PM (#15322077)
What birth control? Examples?

Again, tubal ligation isn't really frowned upon and it is also subsidized. And the ACA requires health insurance...

Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by gruez on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:26PM (#15321826)
>Women in the United States do not have a universal right to health care

wait, what?

>many localities have made it effectively impossible to obtain health care services that are related to reproductive health care.

oh. so by framing access to birth control/abortion as "health care", it's now a "health care" issue. that's a interesting way of grabbing attention.

>We could also point to evidence that there is a practical lack of rights to fair trials in sexual assault cases

are you talking about the men or the women in this case?

Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by KirinDave on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:38PM (#15321889)
> oh. so by framing access to birth control/abortion as "health care", it's now a "health care" issue. that's a interesting way of grabbing attention.

You could read the paragraph where I point out those drugs have other uses. Women with endomitriosis or PCOS need them and can't get them in many states, living in pain and increased mortality because of moral panic over health care.

But even ignoring that, managing when to have children IS a health issue for many women and for their unborn. For example, many women over 40 take birth control because they're concerned about increased rates of birth defects for children with mother's over 40.

Your attempt to frame a phenomenally complicated biological process as anything but a health issue is your politically informed opinion.

Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by thevardanian on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:40PM (#15321901)
How does this have anything to do with the workplace? While I am with on women getting more reproductive attention, I just don't see how it's related. Women have all the rights in regards to getting a job, and advancing their careers.

Also I don't think hysterectomies/"getting the tubes tied" are illegal or even controversial, which would be a far more similar comparison to vasectomies.

Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by KirinDave on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:47PM (#15321936)
Why is this question directed at me? I'm answering a question.

But to answer your question, horrible maternity and paternity leave policies come to mind.

Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by dleslie on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:28PM (#15321840)
Are you referring to abortions solely, or also contraceptives, hysterectomies and tubal libations et al? I've heard that it can be difficult to get oral contraceptives, but I don't know what barriers are in the way.

Honest question; I am Canadian and am not wholly aware of the state of medical affairs south of the fourty-nine.

Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by KirinDave on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:34PM (#15321864)
Several states make reproductive health clinics impossible to run via various methods. Legislation is being pushed in Texas to directly outlaw Planned Parenthood even though abortions are a tiny, tiny fraction of their provided procedures over a yearly basis.
Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by nilkn on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:26PM (#15321825)
A vasectomy should not be compared directly to an abortion. It should be compared to tubal ligation.
Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by KirinDave on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:40PM (#15321899)
Which is also unavailable in many places because the clinics that provide those services are associated with abortion.

But also, this is a "well actually" that attempts to dodge the substance of my post to chip away at it. Ostensibly, these cheaper tactics are frowned upon here and generally considered beneath the desired level of the discourse here.

Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by deepnotderp on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:43PM (#15321916)
> But also, this is a "well actually" that attempts to dodge the substance of my post to chip away at it.

I'm not sure it is. Your assertion was a central tenet of your argument. Abortion, although I totally agree with it being allowed, is admittedly a messy issue, and I can see why it's polarizing. Trying to frame that as an example for why women supposedly don't have equal rights is IMHO disingenuous.

Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by KirinDave on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:52PM (#15321959)
No. My assertion is that women in many places simply cannot buy many types of health care because they're associated with reproductive needs.
Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by deepnotderp on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:56PM (#15321979)
But I don't see any evidence of that. They can buy it, just not usually with federal funds.
Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by KirinDave on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:58PM (#15321994)
You should research this then. I've provided a link in other parts of this thread, please refer to it as the root.

Because I really question if you'd know simply by casually inspecting your surroundings.

Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by deepnotderp on Saturday September 23, 2017 @06:02PM (#15322013)
I've read your link and replied to it. It only points to a grand total of three conservative states cutting off federal funding.
Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by nilkn on Saturday September 23, 2017 @06:06PM (#15322036)
To be completely honest, what you just wrote is far more disruptive to the conversation than what I wrote.

The analogy you made was a pretty central part of your post, and it's really disingenuous to compare abortions to vasectomies. They are utterly different procedures. There simply is no analogy to an abortion procedure for men.

Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by jules on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:28PM (#15321842)
Which localities have made it effectively impossible to obtain hormonal birth control but have unchallenged access to vasectomies?
Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by KirinDave on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:43PM (#15321920)
A great deal of information and links to many credible stories is available here. The efforts are systemic:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/states-fighting-womens-a...

Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by jules on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:46PM (#15321930)
That article is about taxpayer funded health care. Are vasectomies taxpayer funded in these places?
Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by KirinDave on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:59PM (#15321997)
They are subsidized, yes.
Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by deepnotderp on Saturday September 23, 2017 @06:04PM (#15322023)
Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by KirinDave on Saturday September 23, 2017 @08:13PM (#15322506)
So what?

Women have different health care requirements that in some cases have hormonal treatment and those are both under-subsidized and over-stigmatized because religious people of all stripes think it's okay to override women's rights for the sake of their religion.

Tubal ligation doesn't solve a thing for PCOS and Endomitriosis sufferers. It doesn't solve anything for people with thyroid issues. But these women get substandard or no treatment in the efforts to restrict access to birth control.

But hey, the far less reliable tubal ligation is covered and that makes it fine, because I mentioned casually that men's reproductive care is almost never on the table.

Folks were terribly activist about body autonomy when it was medical marijuana on the table. But you mention "oh also this is birth control" and suddenly questions about why governments should be subsidizing medical care for poor people crop up like this isn't a well studied and decades old public health issue. Children of parents with access to pre-natal care cost less to society and offer more than those without, and this is reflected in the health outcomes of planned vs unplanned children.

Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by deepnotderp on Saturday September 23, 2017 @09:16PM (#15322716)
First of all, men's access to vasectomy procedures was a key tenet of your argument as to why it's unfair to women. Second, all of your arguments center on reproductive healthcare, such as birth control, not being government subsidized, but you ignore that men have no government subsidized reproductive health care either. This isn't to say that it should be that way, I tend to think not, but I fail to see how that's a basic right that women lack.
Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by KirinDave on Saturday September 23, 2017 @09:55PM (#15322831)
> First of all, men's access to vasectomy procedures was a key tenet of your argument as to why it's unfair to women.

No, it was not. I mentioned it in passing. There is no analogue in male health care.

> but you ignore that men have no government subsidized reproductive health care either.

This isn't even about subsidization. The defunding of Planned Parenthood is just insult to he injury of making affordable women's clinics essentially impossible to operate in many places in the US.

Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by deepnotderp on Saturday September 23, 2017 @05:46PM (#15321931)
Your link only shows three states, and all of them cut off state/federal funding to institutions providing abortions. This seems like it would be in line with the Hyde amendment. Why is this now somehow an infringement of rights?
Re:Push for Gender Equality in Tech? Some Men Say It’s Gone ... by KirinDave on Saturday September 23, 2017 @08:45PM (#15322611)
The question was: what rights do women lack? Right to access basic health care (or even a marketplace with said care in many states) was my answer.